I would say you need to cast your eyes somewhere other than the headline stories.
eBay is led by a woman, as is Lucent, and Xerox. There are other companies, in California and elsewhere, and in tech, communications, chemistry, manufacturing, and so on.
HP has problems and there have been men contributing to these problems as well as women. To me, this is an HP problem, not a 'woman' problem.
As for being 'derailed' by parenthood, illness, and burnout, what does this have to do with your original premise of role models and women who have made mistakes in important positions?
There's plenty of women who have led. It's up to you young'uns to decide if you have what it takes to follow.
Angie
· 3 years ago
I agree with you Shelley except that also as Charles B said - you're thrust into the limelight, you should take your obligation seriously while enjoying the perks (power?) that goes along for the ride.
Maybe it's because we're indoctrinated to finding women as being nuturing and supportive (leaving out the b*tchy cat fighting) that it's more shocking to find women doing "evil" things vs. men doing such things; men who are often viewed as more cut-throat.
But I'll tell you, when I see men interact I see two things happen on a very regular basis - they ask each other what they do (and if they even superficially like each other) they ask how they can help each other.
Women too often are not helpful towards other women. There is more jealousy and guarded behavior or searching for ulterior motives. I think if women could understand this and could view fewer things as competition more women could open more doors for other women. I don't necessarily mean creating an "old girls' network" but rather enjoying competition for what it's worth (inducing better, sharper behavior) and help each other out. I see far too little of this.
dave mcclure
· 3 years ago
problem: not enough female role models / leader stereotypes in tech & business.
solution: teach girls math & science, have them play sports, wait 40 years.
we've been working on it for about 20-30 years, but the cohorts probably aren't quite old enough yet... however if you look at the change in just the past 10 years in Fortune 500 CEOs and the Senate and the House, the change is quite noticeable. nowhere near parity yet, but dramatically improved from two decades back.
i was raised by a single mother who was a business owner & entrepreneur. she overcame... pretty darn sure joyce will too. (and if i have a damn thing to say about it, so will my daughter; due in january :)
joyce: you & mary hodder better kick ass. my kid's gonna need someone to look up to... don't you dare disappoint her!
Angie, there is no such thing as 'cat fighting'. There's just people who are exchanging acrimonious debate, regardless of sex.
We have to first separate out the behavior associated assumptions as regards men and women, including eliminating 'cat fight' from our vocabulary (unless you literally mean, cats fighting).
As for helping one another, I don't necessarily see this when men greet each other. About the only time I see this is when men are currying favor from each other. I suppose we should learn to emulate this behavior, but it seems tacky to me.
As for genuinely helping each other, I agree. I think we need to stop thinking of ourselves and do things that help others, even without benefit for ourselves.
Women used to do this, but I don't see it as often now, and I rarely see it in the tech profession now. That's disappointing.
Even with women entering science and engineering, our contributions are not treated equally. Role models have nothing to do with this -- that's putting the burden on women to make change.
What needs to change is women's contributions need to be treated fairly and equally. Then more women will be interested in the fields, and hence become role models.
All the role models in the world won't effect change.
Patrick
· 3 years ago
Shelley...
You can pry my job, my money, and jobs and money of my more qualified male friends from my cold, dead and young hands...
Lynne Jolitz
· 3 years ago
Kids, this isn't a recent problem where the 20-somethings aren't ready yet. You can live and die working towards change, as Anita Borg did ("Paving the Way for Systers", 9/15/03, SF Chronicle). http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=...
Of course, the way the business press treats older women (and more recently older men), I'd be astonished if anyone knew there were women in technology before 1990 and that some of us are still going strong.
The drop out rate in the tech area for very well qualified women line managers is very significant as this article notes. Now I'm seeing the same for very well qualified men as well. We've got a real problem in our industry.
Of course, as Patrick notes, he can get his young male gang together to agree that being male is defacto "more qualified", with the implication that a young woman should like it or lump it. After all, where's her gang to fight back?
It's hard to fight prejudice, no matter how many patents, companies, or credentials you may get if you are perceived as inferior for what you are - not what you do.
Sorry to say this but do one or two bad apples represent the entire working class-women in corporate world? IMO, the title for the post is not apt.
Patrick Lee
· 3 years ago
(I'm not the same Patrick that posted earlier) -- Shelley, I have to agree with Angie in her "cat fighting" post. In my previous company, we originally had about 20 employees with about the same number of guys and girls. When hiring, we tried to hire people that we were comfortable with and we felt would fit into our culture. After a few months a strange thing happened, a number of the females could not get along with each other. They would meet with me and privately suggest I fire some of the other girls, etc. Lots of drama. The guys, on the other hand, got along fine. And the girls got along fine with the guys; just not as much with each other. It could have just been our particular mix of employees, so I'm not saying this is a general trend, but I think it was interesting nevertheless.
I don't know if it's just my own personal experience or if this is something pretty common, but I have a number of female friends that pretty much ONLY have guy friends. And I've found if you put these girls with other girls, the latter will tend to (strongly) dislike the former. While on the guy side, I rarely if ever see guys that ONLY have girl friends. Usually the exact opposite is true, where they might just have lots of other guy friends.
So based on my experiences, I would tend to agree with Angie's point about the lack (and difficulty in forming an) "old girls' networks".
dave mcclure
· 3 years ago
>>What needs to change is women’s contributions need to be treated fairly and equally.
Shelley: how do you propose to make this happen?
people shouldn't be poor or ugly either, but nothing changes until you either 1) give money, or 2) do something.
what's your solution?
Joyce Park
· 3 years ago
Hey guys, just thought I'd circle back around to mention that NPR's Science Friday was going to be talking about that women in academic science/technology report today (and via podcast):
Google has specific recruiters dedicated to finding and proactively recruiting female engineers. So, will the next trend be Sex Changes for Male Internet Engineers?
Shelley
· 3 years ago
Dave, what is my solution? I don't know Dave: perhaps we can have a 'gold star for women' day, where we women get to have a chance to be treated with equal worth. We'll start once a year, and when people have adjusted to this, we'll go once a week.
There is no pop solution that is going to make something that's a product of generations 'go away'. But the concept of role models assumes the problem resides with the women, and we need to point out, again and again, that the problem resides with society.
Patrick, please do not use the term cat fighting. I can't account for your job, but I've been on many with women and have gotten along well with the women as with the men. I would say there's a chance your department's culture could have encouraged this behavior.
As for what Angie is saying, there have been several organizations associated with women in tech (and in the sciences and so on) where women work to help and encourage other women. Unfortunately, we're not seeing success because again, the assumption is that women have to make change (ie help each other), when the problem resides with society.
Th
Dave McClure
· 3 years ago
shelley: i am surely not suggesting this is a problem for women only to solve. that said, i'm a big believer in "The Lord Helps Those Who Help Themselves".
rather than simply observing there's a problem or carp about "society" having to do something, i'd propose more specific ways to address the situation.
given the choice of solutions proposed "gold star day" for women (yours), or the option to create more programs for science, math, & athletics for females at the primary & secondary school level (mine)... somehowe i think mine might be a little more effective.
Title IX is a much more constructive longitudinal approach to addressing these issues than waiting for "society" or someone else to solve the problem. cheers to Patsy Mink.
Natassia Malthe
· 1 year ago
Hey!...I Googled for marketing mix models, but found your page about The downfall of female role models...and have to say thanks. nice read.
All Comments
eBay is led by a woman, as is Lucent, and Xerox. There are other companies, in California and elsewhere, and in tech, communications, chemistry, manufacturing, and so on.
HP has problems and there have been men contributing to these problems as well as women. To me, this is an HP problem, not a 'woman' problem.
As for being 'derailed' by parenthood, illness, and burnout, what does this have to do with your original premise of role models and women who have made mistakes in important positions?
There's plenty of women who have led. It's up to you young'uns to decide if you have what it takes to follow.
Maybe it's because we're indoctrinated to finding women as being nuturing and supportive (leaving out the b*tchy cat fighting) that it's more shocking to find women doing "evil" things vs. men doing such things; men who are often viewed as more cut-throat.
But I'll tell you, when I see men interact I see two things happen on a very regular basis - they ask each other what they do (and if they even superficially like each other) they ask how they can help each other.
Women too often are not helpful towards other women. There is more jealousy and guarded behavior or searching for ulterior motives. I think if women could understand this and could view fewer things as competition more women could open more doors for other women. I don't necessarily mean creating an "old girls' network" but rather enjoying competition for what it's worth (inducing better, sharper behavior) and help each other out. I see far too little of this.
solution: teach girls math & science, have them play sports, wait 40 years.
we've been working on it for about 20-30 years, but the cohorts probably aren't quite old enough yet... however if you look at the change in just the past 10 years in Fortune 500 CEOs and the Senate and the House, the change is quite noticeable. nowhere near parity yet, but dramatically improved from two decades back.
i was raised by a single mother who was a business owner & entrepreneur. she overcame... pretty darn sure joyce will too. (and if i have a damn thing to say about it, so will my daughter; due in january :)
joyce: you & mary hodder better kick ass. my kid's gonna need someone to look up to... don't you dare disappoint her!
- dave mcclure
http://500hats.typepad.com/
We have to first separate out the behavior associated assumptions as regards men and women, including eliminating 'cat fight' from our vocabulary (unless you literally mean, cats fighting).
As for helping one another, I don't necessarily see this when men greet each other. About the only time I see this is when men are currying favor from each other. I suppose we should learn to emulate this behavior, but it seems tacky to me.
As for genuinely helping each other, I agree. I think we need to stop thinking of ourselves and do things that help others, even without benefit for ourselves.
Women used to do this, but I don't see it as often now, and I rarely see it in the tech profession now. That's disappointing.
Even with women entering science and engineering, our contributions are not treated equally. Role models have nothing to do with this -- that's putting the burden on women to make change.
What needs to change is women's contributions need to be treated fairly and equally. Then more women will be interested in the fields, and hence become role models.
All the role models in the world won't effect change.
You can pry my job, my money, and jobs and money of my more qualified male friends from my cold, dead and young hands...
("Paving the Way for Systers", 9/15/03, SF Chronicle). http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=...
Of course, the way the business press treats older women (and more recently older men), I'd be astonished if anyone knew there were women in technology before 1990 and that some of us are still going strong.
The drop out rate in the tech area for very well qualified women line managers is very significant as this article notes. Now I'm seeing the same for very well qualified men as well. We've got a real problem in our industry.
Of course, as Patrick notes, he can get his young male gang together to agree that being male is defacto "more qualified", with the implication that a young woman should like it or lump it. After all, where's her gang to fight back?
It's hard to fight prejudice, no matter how many patents, companies, or credentials you may get if you are perceived as inferior for what you are - not what you do.
Lynne Jolitz
Chief Technology Officer
ExecProducer / CoolClip Network
I don't know if it's just my own personal experience or if this is something pretty common, but I have a number of female friends that pretty much ONLY have guy friends. And I've found if you put these girls with other girls, the latter will tend to (strongly) dislike the former. While on the guy side, I rarely if ever see guys that ONLY have girl friends. Usually the exact opposite is true, where they might just have lots of other guy friends.
So based on my experiences, I would tend to agree with Angie's point about the lack (and difficulty in forming an) "old girls' networks".
Shelley: how do you propose to make this happen?
people shouldn't be poor or ugly either, but nothing changes until you either 1) give money, or 2) do something.
what's your solution?
http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2006/Sep/hou...
So, will the next trend be Sex Changes for Male Internet Engineers?
There is no pop solution that is going to make something that's a product of generations 'go away'. But the concept of role models assumes the problem resides with the women, and we need to point out, again and again, that the problem resides with society.
Patrick, please do not use the term cat fighting. I can't account for your job, but I've been on many with women and have gotten along well with the women as with the men. I would say there's a chance your department's culture could have encouraged this behavior.
As for what Angie is saying, there have been several organizations associated with women in tech (and in the sciences and so on) where women work to help and encourage other women. Unfortunately, we're not seeing success because again, the assumption is that women have to make change (ie help each other), when the problem resides with society.
Th
rather than simply observing there's a problem or carp about "society" having to do something, i'd propose more specific ways to address the situation.
given the choice of solutions proposed "gold star day" for women (yours), or the option to create more programs for science, math, & athletics for females at the primary & secondary school level (mine)... somehowe i think mine might be a little more effective.
Title IX is a much more constructive longitudinal approach to addressing these issues than waiting for "society" or someone else to solve the problem. cheers to Patsy Mink.