Very interesting article! I wonder (seriously) if the urge to be a self-taught programmer is related to the male gene that prevents us from reading instructions or asking for directions?
You see a similar lack of women in "hard science" e.g. physics or mathematics. I think whatever skews women more towards biology than physics is fundamentally the same underlying reason...
I asked my wife, who is smart, well educated and a bit nerdy (she went to space camp!). She felt the same -- most women are wired (either by biology or by social circumstance) to be less confident in jumping in to this kind of thing. And that begs the question of whether it is nature vs nuture...
geekette
· 2 years ago
FEWQUID, I doubt there's a genetic difference making women less "wired" to learn by themselves. Their absence in the industry is probably more related to the fact that 1.) girls are not raised to present their intelligence confidently and aggressively (thus having a formal degree helps), 2.) most employers would probably not even interview a woman applying for an engineering job without any formal CS training.
niti
· 2 years ago
I must agree in part with Geekette. Another aspect, at least as I recall from my senior year when I was first introduced to the Trash-80 [82-83] was that the after school computer lab/club was naturally dominated by the boys, and they were of the particularly geeky sort who couldn't relax with a "girl" around or share bits of code or tips on programming. If you think about it, its a bit like "eeee, girls have cooties" carried over from kindergarten. And the interest or passion for coding/playing around with the box that starts there, in your teens if not earlier is what carries the men through the rest of their lives. Its also supported by an equal interest in science fiction - a weakness I must confess to, however by 14/15 [this might have changed in the intervening two decades] the girls were being distracted by school dances, finding a boyfriend, going on dates, primping and of course, the prom.
The key time to engage the interest of girls is just before puberty in order for that interest in computers to become all consuming enough to pursue for the rest of their lives, with or without a degree. The downside is that you trade off any kind of popularity or social life during your school days, and how many of us would make that trade? I did and only I remember what a dork/nerd/geek I was in high school - the problem's roots lie in environment, society, peer pressure, not answered as simply as nature vs nurture.
imho
CK
· 2 years ago
GEEKETTE, I think it's time we should admit there are at least some fundamental genetic differences between men and women. Saying girls may not be more inclined towards/apt at math and science than boys, by nature, will sound terribly politically-incorrect, but I think looking at matters from a purely social perspective might be equally misleading. By any means we are not saying girls are inferior to boys or vice versa. It's just that, we don't have to deny there might be genetic differences between men and women. Admitting that and acting accordingly will probably help the matter - e.g. by having some quota for women in the CS departments.
lottie
· 2 years ago
I agree with CK. Girls are different from boys so I don't fret over the fact that there aren't many of us who are self-made engineers--open source or other. We need to stop comparing ourselves to standards set by men and start promoting the accomplishments we've made that are consistent with being women.
fewquid
· 2 years ago
First of all, I agree 100% with Lottie's comments. I think one of the failings of modern feminism was it's attempt to judge a woman's value against a scale created by men. There are differences between the sexes, and that's a fantastic thing.
As I said, the interesting thing here to me is whether this is an issue of nature or nurture (or social circumstances, upbringing or whatever your favorite "nurture" label is).
The numbers seem to show that men are more inclined towards the kind of bootstrapped learning process that Ms. Park's article discusses.
However, whether that is a "natural" male trait or a learned one is not clear at all.
My wife and I discussed this a lot tonight and she pointed out that as a young child, her brother (like me) used to have a passion for taking apart broken items and attempting to repair them. She couldn't think of a single female friend that had ever done this. I started doing that when I was 7 or 8 years old, which is pretty young to be doing or not doing something due to social pressures. It's also an activity that is done alone, not in groups, so the "group of boys say girls are icky" factor doesn't come in to play.
As a relatively new father, I hope my daughter will do and be whatever she wants in life. I certainly plan on giving her every opportunity to explore any kind of learning opportunity she wants to pursue. Unfortunately, it's going to be a good 16+ years before I have any kind of answer to this question...
Well, I just finished reading this book and the authors may have already provided us with the answer.
Glotty
· 2 years ago
I'm a female computer scientist who was raised by my father (also a computer scientist) and two brothers. I'm very stereotypically female in some ways, but I was always into taking things apart as a child and spending HOURS on my computer. Other little girls were not encouraged to do those kinds of activities as small children. They were given dolls to play with. My female friends growing up were taught to go shopping and think about fashion and how to find/please a guy. I always never understood that stuff because I was not raised that way. I don't believe women and men are the same ...but women are not taught as small children or adults to build a career out of nothing. They are taught to live their life through their relationships (wife, mother, daughter, etc.). A career is nice but doesn't define your role in society the way it does for a man.
So, please stop scaring me with this nonsense that women may be genetically less inclined to do science/math or certain leadership activities like entrepreneurship. In China where 50% of engineering students are male and 50% female, you see similar rates of achievement across gender.
Bess
· 2 years ago
Joyce, We need to carry out this conversation at and beyond Women 2.0 2007 meetup in Palo Alto. I totally agree with your observation and facts. How sad it is. I don't even have to mention my last name. How many active Female Web Organization Leaders in Silicon Valley with my first name? You pretty much will quickly find out who I am. I have my observation and explaination on why girls didn't get into computer. And how many girls didn't get into Web 2.0 startup or even entrepreneur circle. Girls have to be pretty tough to stay working at founding stage or launching something new. How many girls are willing to work overnight in office around the clock sometimes and may even have to sleep in office. I've got a sleeping bag in my office even I live 10 min away. How many guys would like a girl working with them while they can't do guy talks? Basically I forget myself as a girl in order to work with the guys to get respect and get work done. Any way, we will talk more at the party and I am sure it would be a lot of fun.
CindyPsych
· 2 years ago
As a self-taught female programmer / IT Manager / Database Developer / etc. I can say that one of the biggest obstacles I have faced is disbelief. Somehow non-technical people can accept the idea that any guy who says he is an IT guru is an IT guru. But every time I say I am an IT expert I am subjected to a constant grind of doubt and disbelief.
I have to prove over and over to every new employee at our company that, no, the title IT Manager isn't a synonym for Office Manager (if they even give me that much credit). Many of the men that I supervise in our IT department have a truly difficult time understanding that I AM a card-carrying geek. In addition to teaching myself several programming languages, scripting languages, markup languages, databases, and operating systems I also love Star Wars, read technical manuals the way others read the funnies, play video games, and even (yes, I admit it) play Dungeons and Dragons in my free time. And I am a happily married mother of two who cooks dinner most nights.
The younger they are the easiest time I have. I am 40. It's people my own age and older who just don't get me. Younger people, men and women, think it's cool that I switched from a career as a Psychologist to programming and IT Management because I loved doing it and the money is better. People my age think I'm full of *bs* but usually let me prove myself eventually. People older just never quite seem to understand that I do know what I am doing.
CindyPsych
· 2 years ago
And, for the record, I've always loved taking things apart and putting them back together. My step-father was an electrical engineer. He got me a Radio Shack electrical science kit when I was 8 because I had done some electrical experiments at school and loved it (anyone else out there remember lighting a light bulb with a battery made from a potato?).
Alaina
· 2 years ago
Most of the self taught people I've met are older. Perhaps it was simply less acceptable years ago for women to go into computers and more acceptable for people to not have degrees. Alternatively, it may simply not occur to women they can get into the field without a degree. All job postings require degrees and the only people you hear about who don't have degrees have been around for a long time and/or are kiddie hotshots.
Dina
· 2 years ago
We need to consider the role of networking here. Before one builds up credentials through a job history, or even after when changing specialties, if one wants a job commensurate with their abilities, one needs either educational credentials or a company insider who knows them or believes in them. That means a network, and we all know that those tend towards preservation of demographics. That is, when the field is mostly male, men have an easier time getting in informally (without a degree), whereas women without a degree will face more obstacles to entry. Such networks probably work to women's advantage in female-dominated fields, so the pendulum swings both ways.
tired of
· 2 years ago
Once again this fact is overlooked: Why would a woman who is smart enough to be self-taught want one of these (QA, etc) jobs? Long hours sitting on your rump in a small room, responsible for problems that other people have created... Plus, yes, women are different than men. Let's get over it already.
Gloria W
· 2 years ago
Many self-taught men get jobs through friends and business connections. This is what hurts women the most.
The differences in the social network are so vast, for many reasons, and it is a huge hindrance.
The good news is that free job posting boards are dissolving the need for many to reach into their own personal social networks for employees and business partners. This is helping women find those once hidden opportunities.
Pauli Price
· 2 years ago
I’m currently the founder and president of a pre-alpha stage startup. Will we one day be venture backed? Don’t know. If we do, I’ll get back to you, so you can update your stats.
I’m a self-taught woman engineer – by your definition. My degree is in political science. I parlayed a position as a summer marketing intern into a part-time technology training position – back in ’84. My pitch – people didn’t know how to use the new IBM PC’s that were now popping up everywhere, and I could teach them. My credentials? I had read the manual for MS DOS and Lotus 123, and figured out how to write macros and batch files. Eventually, I was developing trading systems along side people with graduate degrees in physics, finance and CS. And most of the time I’ve been the only woman – except at the company where I got my start, the hiring manager there was a woman.
Why aren’t there more of us? I think there is a great deal of social pressure on women not to be selfish – i.e. not to spend all their time away from family and friends. The only way you can be a self-taught engineer is if you devote significant amount of time to learning and doing. Time that might otherwise be spent in more socially acceptable ways – organizing social responsibilities and managing extended circles of friends and family, being the primary caretaker of the home, etc. After all, if a guy has his head stuck in a computer and forgets to come up for air – and doesn’t arrange to come home for Christmas – well – he’s just that way. When a woman does it – it’s a major social failure, and you’ll never hear the end of it! I once didn’t bother to come home on my 24th birthday until maybe midnight. I stayed late at the office, self teaching myself something or other. My little sister had organized a surprise birthday party for me. Whoops!
Stacey Morrison
· 2 years ago
I think there are a number of things that girls are not encouraged to do that boys are such as taking things apart and being anti-social. I was not encouraged to take things apart or get dirty and I was always encouraged to be sociable with my girl friends growing up. However, my father was my favorite parent and I hung out with my brother's friends and I was mostly a tom boy growing up. Most of my friends were boys and when I went to and engineering school, most of the people there were men. I also had an aptitude in math and science which my father encouraged. I didn't program computers on my own, but I learned through a class in high school that I liked computers and decided to get a BS and an MS in computer science because it was a good way to make a living. I felt I was at a disadvantage because I had not taught myself how to program in high school, but I made up the difference with pure stubborness and being the only girl did not bother me since I was the only girl growing up in a lot of cases. I have a 13-year-old daughter who has been using a computer since she was 18 months old. She has taken classes in intermediate school on programming and Adobe Photoshop. She has taught herself how to use HTML and creates wonderful computer art. She has me as a role model and her father and I encourage her to do what she wants to do. I think she will have no problem getting into the computer field. I do think that women need encouragement to go outside the stereotype and having a degree seems to give us the proof that we need to show the world that we can do what the piece of paper we have earned says we can. Women just do not use the bravado to get a job without the proof we have that we can do it. Men are just taught or have the gene to do that. Women are taught not to think more of ourselves than we are. I think that we need to encourage girls at the earliest age possible that they can do it and should not be afraid to try things. Until then, girls are not going to just arbitrarily take things apart. They want confirmation that it is OK to do it. Once society says it is OK, then girls will teach themselves more. Also it helps if using computers is a more social activity. My daughter uses the computer more when she can communicate with others over the network. If she didn't have that ability, I don't think she would be using the computer as often. She talks on the phone while she is texting the person she is talking to. It is really interesting to see how girls use a computer versus boys. I think that if we encourage girls to use the computer more for programming, we will see more girls doing that.
Karen Hoofnagle
· 2 years ago
I'm another self-taught female programmer with a college degree in English. My desire to play with the machine has been fed and fostered by key but not always close relationships again and again over the years -- a very distant older male acquaintance convinced me I could assemble my first PC from soup to nuts when I was about 23 and just realizing how poorly I'd chosen my college degree for life after. He helped me buy the parts, but nothing more. Another long term warm acquaintance helped me get my first unix programming job.
I listen to women talk about closed doors, distant coworkers and lack of opportunity, but I, personally, have never lived that. Friendly, non-romantic relationships -- mostly, but not always with men -- have always created safe places for me to experiment, express ignorance, and learn how the professional game is played.
I suspect this has something to do with having been raised by a physicist father, spending my early childhood as the only girl on a street full of boys and being very close to my brother until he went to college. Anyhow, for whatever it's worth, my community makes my career possible.
Kristen Nicole
· 2 years ago
As with all things I think there's large contributions from both nature and nuture; The way we are genetically programmed as well as the way we are raised. Given the genetic predisposition of those that raise us, though, says a lot about our nature. I'm glad to see women in more industries, especially engineering, biology, etc. It speaks a lot to the previous generations, and I'm proud to come from such a proud and independent mother who paved her own way in this world.
xter
· 2 years ago
Yes, there are biological differences between genders. Like someone else previously said, get over it!
I am of the female sex and gender. I loved to take apart mechanical things and put them back together. When something in the house broke, it was me who was called to figure it out and fix it. It's not that I lacked for the ability to explore and learn by myself.
What really held me back (and cut me down) in college was that I didn't have a network that supported me in my explorations and learning. Yea, maybe I do need that rah, rah factor of encouragement, at least recognition of something done right. But that doesn't make me more female, it makes me more human. Duh! Everyone needs recognition, at the least, validation.
As a rebuttal, one might say, what about the past lone male scientist who worked tirelessly for years on end. Others derided his work, he didn't need validation, he could work by himself.
Wrong! What he didn't have was the entire human race telling him that he couldn't do it because of his gender. The scientist knew at a deep level that it was his *idea* that was isolated and derided, not his *gender*.
Contrast that with a woman in the past, if it was a woman who worked alone and tirelessly, it was with the knowledge that it was her *gender* that was derided, not necessarily her idea itself. Her ideas came in second to her gender.
Same ideas given by a man were (and still is) given more merit. Look up the different different psychology/sociology/anthropology studies about this. [Same resume, A with male name, B with female name, B is graded less just because of the *gender* of the name. Change the name from a 'white' name to a 'black' name (John vs LeShawn) and you get the same results.]
It is finally time to label this sort of gender imbalance by what it really is, misogyny!! Let's get that right. Every time we start talking about 'why don't girls do this or that', start with the first fact of this (and most other) culture, misogyny. Other cultures (also misogynistic) have plenty of women in tech fields, math, science, comp sci, who do very well. So why don't we? Do a cross culture comparison, and you'll see that it's all about nurture.
The first question people ask is 'is it a boy or a girl?' Until we can remove that (and so many damn others) from our collective conscious to something else, we will always be bound by our binary paradigm.
Several good books about it, one of which is written by a man: Misogyny: The World's Oldest Prejudice by Jack Holland.
DG
· 2 years ago
It takes strong determination to accomplish anything in life. Please stop self-discriminating who you are and what you are by blaming others not letting you do what you want to do. On one side, Prejudice comes from outside; However, how many time, people fall into the victim of Social Proof themselves. You are who you are, but you have to show them who you are!
leslie
· 2 years ago
I am a self taught developer. My first degree is in electrical engineering, but I managed to get my degree with very few software courses. My second degree is in fine art. Almost everything I've learned has been self taught. I know many different languages, operating systems, scripting languages etc.
I think there are strong social pressures against women spending that much time with a computer and my family has never understood it. I'm considered a bit of a failure because I'm not married.
I also think girls are much less confident about jumping in to things and I know that learning to do that was a big hurdle for me.
However I am also continually frustrated by having to prove myself over and over again. No matter what my past accomplishments are, I have to prove my ability ever time I start working with new people. No one expects a woman with an art degree to be a good programmer. Sometimes I do want to just want to quit because it's too frustrating.
On the other hand, my motivation working with software often seems to be different than the guys I work with. There are many guys that are just completely in love with and fascinated by the computer and how it works. I don't have that. I know how computers work as well as they do, but computers are only a tool for me. I'm happy to use other tools to create if they do what I want. It's that love of the actual computer that seems to put me apart from guys I work with.
I wish I did know the answers and I've spent a lot of time thinking about why there are so few women that do what I do. I believe that it is a combination of social and genetic differences. I do suspect however that if the social issues were gone, women would find their own way to thrive with software.
Bess
· 2 years ago
I grow up in all-girl schools until I enter college where sharing classroom with guys. I am so aware of what girls like and doesn't like. Even in college, most of the girls wouldn't think Computer major is cool. If you have high GPA, you are encouraged by family and friends to study Medicine, Law, Graduate School, MBA. Computer major is way down on the wanted list. This is just a social and peer situation with girls.
Shortly after graduate, I get dragged into computer business by 2 guy friends outside full time job. With all the people they know including guys, they identity me with the right attitude for business. To prove the angle investors and the guys that I can get compensated equally, I have to learn about networking business, willing to learn the hardware parts, read certification manual, and show that I am not afriad of taking computer apart. I find out quickly that I have to work very hard to prove your ability when you are a girl working with guys. You can see all these things can be very boring when you could have gone shopping, partying, dancing, outdoor with other friends in your spare time. You can see you must have the determination to get into computer related business.
What is interesting? My single girl friends are going out to all those dating events while I am going out to those tech events to recruit volunteers, build attendance, and network with media in rebuilding a lost web community in SV. Plus I have to spot the most current trends and study the latest technology so that I can stay ahead to come up with very cool programs. Not to mention about the Startup type deadlines at work.
This is such interesting topic. I can find a host to have all girl gathering so we can talk it all out. Guys just don't know how tough to be a girl in tech world.
niti
· 2 years ago
will there be beer? and nuts? :P We really should go talk about being the only girl in that department, office, class, whatever...
Angie
· 2 years ago
Seems like an opportune time to pitch in.
I'm part of Women 2.0, and we are organizing an all-girl meetup next Thursday night (Jan 11th, 2007) in Palo Alto to create these professional social networks for young women.
It seems we have a lot in common, Bess and everyone else on this thread. I am a social welfare and english major, and now am a UI Designer. I'm in the startup scene. I'm a huge proponent for more women to join this Silicon Valley ecosystem to make it more diverse and interesting. We should talk.
Will try to make it, since i'm still in singapore visiting family and don't return to SF till the 9th or the 10th [time zone wise]
Bess
· 2 years ago
Good pitch Angie! I thought someone from Women 2.0 will come out to say a few words.
There are technical topics we can discuss intelligently: How to keep weight off working long hours and late nights with crazy deadlines How to keep good figure with minimal exercise How to fight off snack eating habits when you are under pressure programming How to find out the latest shopping tips without spending too much time in shopping mall How do you smartly invest your time and money
What is your list?
Nicole
· 2 years ago
I am an EE - both BS and MS. Is it possible you are not looking at this right? Is there a lack of 'self-taught' talent because we who have self-taught tech were too hungry to stop there and went on to pursue formal credentials for the knowledge and the opportunities that brought. In looking back at my EE schooling the number and percentage of men who started and then quit EE was staggeringly larger than the women - we were few but determined. I was self taught then needed more! I am still self-teaching every day in each new job and at home. I have not had 2 jobs the same or even very similar. I am driven to tinker and know. Maybe women don't remain uncredentialed for fear of not being given opportunity or because they want to know more {or know everything 8-) } I have also at times considered making Nicole Nick or N. on resumes and in on-line communications to avoid the hassle of being singled out for female. In the end I never have done so but you might be surprised that others in on-line, open source or otherwise, forums are not who they seem to be. Just a few points to ponder...
Hoyt
· 2 years ago
It is refreshing and encouraging to learn that there are indeed girls and women who do teach themselves engineering and the inner functionings of technological artifacts.
The essential issue, however, is that of taking risks. Girls and women do not take the same level of risk as boys and men. In most fields of endeavor....sports, relationships, the military, exploration. Being a guy, I can tell you that we dont ask for permission to do this (to start taking apart things for example) we just go and do it. It seems "natural" and just plain cool. So call it "innate" or whatever, I was born with this.
Women want the rewards without taking the risks. It doesnt work that way, nor should it. (and some of you feminists will call that a "male standard", but it is a general principal of human societies and endeavor).
So, jump on into the water, its great out here, we arent stopping you, but please stop crying in your milk that its discrimination by men. You have to start digging deeper inside yourselves if you want to go down this path. I think you can do it, just realize the costs and inner emotional hurdles you face, but dont blame us if you havent got "the right stuff".
A Stanford PhD in Engineering
Nicole
· 2 years ago
Hoyt - you are telling women to jump in, which you believe is contrary to their nature, because it is "natural" for men to do so and that is how they succeed and you leave no room for good old boys club. I can tell you that it is and has always been quite natural for me to jump in and that my EE husband is the more cautious of the two - preferring a narrow focus to his career and moving slowly through house wiring issues where I was sitting rewiring our entire electrical box while pregnant with no previous experience. All that said my husband is an excellent engineer but explain to me how with identical credentials and my go get it attitude and my more extensive experience (longer career) that I make significantly less money than he does now but had always made more than him until we hit the 7-10 years of experience mark. Also, I had to fight to get senior title and he was given it in course of normal reviews and raises (as I should have - we both earned it). I have the right stuff by the bucketful and yet there does still exist boy's club mentality. Just yesterday a male tech asked me - a senior engineer - to mail something for him because he's older and thinks that is a girl's job. I agree women should 'jump in' but don't try to pretend that discrimination is a thing of the past.
Bill
· 2 years ago
I guess I don't understand why this is a problem, or why it's something that needs to be addressed.
Veterinary medicine, for example, has about 75% female gradutes as of late. I understand human medicine is goin g the same way. Is this a problem? Do we need to have special enticements to lure males into medicine? Are males being discriminated against? Should we file a lawsuit against someone? Petition congress for gender quotas?
I don't care that I'm more likely to see a female doctor, should you care that your software is more likely to be written by a male engineer?
I certainly think it's a shame if anyone, for any reason, avoids pursuing their true calling. However, I don't find any glass ceilings preventing any such thing. I do find that males have a predilection for some jobs, and females others. Is that such a bad thing, or do we all need to try to be identical?
I certainly hope the result of all this isn't to encourage anyone who isn't truly interested in engineering to become one. I've never worked with worse engineers than the ones that chose their career for the wrong reasons.
I think I actually find this article somewhat condescending towards women, as if whatever professions they are choosing aren't "good enough" and more of them need to become engineers for some reason.
Poppycock.
Engineer
· 2 years ago
I have a nice little tidbit of information you could learn from. Software engineers are NOT engineers; please stop acting like they are. When they take real sciences, labs, and become licensed then we can discuss their status. Until then they are not even remotely similar.
TECHASSOC
· 2 years ago
As an entrepreneur and engineer, I have had my handful of apprentices who I've tried to seed with the same motivating factors that lead me down my path. I have tried even harder with females. With only one successful sprout in my carreer versus a dozen or more males I must say the ground simply is not as fertile. And, I believe it is ultimately a genetic issue. I have dealt with women in 3rd world coutrnies who have had similar opportunities where their outcome is critical their livelihoods and ther are no social molds. Men still outnumber the women. It has been scientifically proven that male and female brains are different in structure. Ask yourself why there are so many more male Audiofiles? There is a simple genetic explaination: Men percieve the nuances of the spatial representation of sound better than women. Why? Take it back to the caves. When men were hunting, precisely hearing, locating and extracting any other usable information from the noise made by the animal meant the difference between coming home with a meal and being one. While this was happening, women were grazing for berries or involved in group family maintenance issues which tended to communicate frequently and more with emotional needs. Men, in coordinating kills and migrations had to communicate precisely but terse. Denying the differences in brains between men and women and the better suited applications for those differences is like denying what's between your legs.
LCB
· 2 years ago
Just a quick reply while I am thinking about it (i.e., before reading all comments) to Geekette's assertion that "most employers would probably not even interview a woman applying for an engineering job without any formal CS training."
I believe that is false. I base that belief on two data points (albeit anecdotal):
1) Although I am male, my first name is spelled such that the preponderance of people who have never met or talked to me think that I am female (not to mention all the junk mail/email I get meant for a woman).
When I send out my resume, I get indications (sometimes minor, sometimes major) that employers/recruiters are downright excited that they may be able to interview/hire a female engineer with my experience (my degree is EE, but I am a software engineer).
2) Almost every employer I have worked for in the software industry has actively tried to hire female engineers. Not to the point that they would get called on it, but employers and engineering departments, want a diverse workplace.
3) Most employers I have worked for care more about ability/skill/experience than degrees/certifications - but then this may be because I myself have no CS degree and they hired me, so I have not worked for those other employers (Thank God).
One comment with regards to women in engineering overall: engineers need to be assertive and outspoken to a certain degree, so that we can effective communicate. Many women have not been raised in a culture where that is allowed, much less encouraged.
Then there are the schools; it has been a while (20 years since I graduated), but the college where I got my EE, the head of the department didn't like women in the program - he thought they were not capable.
Ass
· 2 years ago
Lame. Men are way more career focused and therefore more likely to be dedicated enough to be a start up engineer. Most women engineers are trolls.
Engineerio
· 2 years ago
I'm a self-taught male, and a design engineer at Microsoft. I don't have a degree. I did have friends who helped me get jobs when I was starting out, but only because I had a reputation as a serious geek - to they point they all made fun of me. Most recently I was pre-screened and hired by females.
Do you know how much I would have loved to learn along side a female when I was teaching myself, or hanging out with my buddies? Can you guess what the girls in highschool thought of me?
I would suggest that coming up with a new piece of paper (certificate/degree/whatever) only re-inforces the trap of making women believe they need external affirmation in order to succeed. Not to mention, leveraging extra capital implies they are less cost-effective. If I was a women I would run away from this kind of favor.
Duke
· 2 years ago
Joyce: You're from Tacoma, and you managed to escape, so of course you're going to be a computer scientist! Ha Ha. But seriously though, you should probably feel lucky that you are able to write broken PHP code!
So Naive
· 2 years ago
This article makes my balls itch. It's as if it were written on the inside pocket of a pink Trapper Keeper between the "I love [insert teen idol here]" and a sketch of a pony. Grow up.
MD
· 2 years ago
Your thesis is muddled, Joyce. You bemoan the the twin ills a) that women will "disproportionately fail to experience the upper end of the range of Silicon Valley outcomes" and b) that there exists an incalculable "opportunity cost to Silicon Valley ventures due to insufficient diversity of backgrounds, ideas, and modes of thought; but as the end consumer of our work becomes increasingly female, these costs must be rising."
And yet the very "engineering" positions you claim lack self-taught female workers (QA, build and release, documentation, DBAs) don't typically produce the entrepreneurs that innovate and set product direction (there are exceptions, of course), or go on "to experience the upper end of the range of Silicon Valley outcomes."
I do agree that there are far fewer self-taught females working in the positions mentioned above, but I've known several and their numbers may be in proportion to those of degreed female engineers working in all of software or technology development (which number is also a small fraction compared to male counterparts). Do you have numbers to back up your concern here or is your thesis based merely on personal observation?
In any case, won't (or shouldn't) the market correct any imbalance between technology production and technology consumption, irrespective of gender?
MD
Software ENGINEER
· 2 years ago
re: ENGINEER: At both universities I attended software engineers are required to take the same mathmatics and science courses as mechanical, chemical, electrical, and civil engineers. These included two hour labs twice each week in chemistry, biology, and several in physics (topics ranging from kinematics, dynamics, optics, E&M, and quantum).
Sure, I didn't have to study the unique characteristics of materials to the detail that a mechanical engineer would. Nor did I have to study the ways they behave under stress. But the mechanical engineers didn't have to study the design and implementation of parallel and distributed computing systems they use to simulate and/or solve such problems. Nor did they have to study the quantum physics needed to explain the functioning of semiconductor devices. That just means they aren't software or electrical engineers.
As for licensing, that's government-mandated junk engineers in *your* field have to put up with. It doesn't make you an engineer any more than passing your DMV written test makes you a driver.
Karen
· 2 years ago
I am another GEEKETE....and I do think girls are taught differently....but I do think it's changing. I have 3 brothers and I know more about computers than all three of the put together. They all have kids and all girls except for one boy and I think because they have a sister that thinks she can do anything they are teaching their girls that way. I was always told I couldn't do things because I was a girl....well, that was the wrong thing to say to me...just made more determined....so I guess my parents did me a favor by telling me that. I don't believe in quotas as one responder mentioned....you should get something because you earn it not because you are female, black, white, hispanic, asian.....ect. I have never wanted to be handed something because I was a girl. I want to work for and earn it. I do think there will be more successful women in SILICON Valley and everywhere -- it takes time.
Ray O'Leary
· 2 years ago
Bess, your posts border on the idiotic. Pink? Are you for real? Is this some elaborate joke? Never read such stereotypical "girly" drivel in my life. The author needs to check Renkoo.com's CSS for the same reason... unless it is designed to attract only women and gay men.
Daniel
· 2 years ago
Woo hoo! Another scholarship/internship program for women, draining the coffers of organizations that had similar, non-gender biased programs (that will soon be scrapped) that I could have applied for.
Cause nothing makes me happier than waking up each morning feeling like the scum of the earth because I have a penis. I didn't repress any women, I never told any girl I knew they couldn't be an engineer or a programmer, infact I don't know a single girl who wants to be a programmer and the girls I know who want to be engineers, *GASP* are in the engineering program (one will graduate next year, her 3rd year, with an Mechanical Engineering degree).
Frankly, if you want to start up a program to encourage women in engineering and comp.sci., you don't need to do a professional program to be attended when you are expected to have made up your mind. You're asking girls who currently have no interest to do a year long internship when they could be a college doing what they want. You won't generate ANY new interest.
What you need to do is get the girls while they are young, encourage math and science and let them decide if they want to be Biologists or Chemists or Civil Engineers or Computer Scientists.
Just don't be like the patriarchs you fought against in the 60's and tell them what they are interested in.
Lincoln Yeoh
· 2 years ago
1) Women don't want to. Because most women just aren't interested in IT.
The barriers of entry into IT are really low - because even poor people in 3rd world countries can participate. So there's nothing significant that prevents women in 1st world countries from doing the same.
2) Why should they want to? It's not as if the _average_ IT job is that well paying. And US companies regularly sack IT workers and send their jobs to India.
So why keep trying to encourage women to do something that most of them are obviously not that interested in, and doesn't really pay that well? Just so they have a 1/10000 chance of being a top CEO?
Sounds totally STUPID to me.
People might as well go into some other industry which they are interested in, pays better, and gives them the same or better chance of becoming a CEO/boss. There are more lucrative sectors out there.
Why not spend as much effort to get more guys into Nursing? Their greater upper body strength will help in moving or turning over patients.
DJ
· 2 years ago
Nonsense! Why cant people just accept that men and women are DIFFERENT. Their likes and dislikes are DIFFERENT. Their tastes are DIFFERENT. Each sex is better at something. So stop pushing women into things they DONT want to do….!
You dont see men proposing to get more men into professions like "hair dressing" or the hospitality industry??
Fredrik
· 2 years ago
Lots of interesting thoughts shared here.
I've been working with SW development for 8 years. I'm sure there are genetic differences between men an women. I believe that feminine men are more inclined to work as e.g. hairdressers or selling clothes and that masculine women are more inclined to work with computers and technology. There is of course a scale with feminine in one end and masculine in the other where each individual is different. And of course there are lots of other "scales" that the individual must be in the right interval of to e.g. fit as a SW developer in the long run. When you are young the most interesting thing (for most boys and girls) is the opposite sex. Since girls and women are more selective when it comes to choosing a partner than men there are more men than women that "don't get lucky" and end up spending their time on sports, computers etc. I doubt that girls and women are willing to spend long nights without extra pay just to finalize some stupid piece of code (pun intended ;) while boys and men spur each other into this kind of strange behaviour.
Joseph
· 2 years ago
As a self taught programmer who is male I have wondered why the ratio of self taught male programmers to self taught female programmers is roughly similar to the ratio of female to male cheerleaders. I would hazard a guess that for whatever reasons, programming is more likely to be appealing to a guy. I know a few girls who can program, but none of them seem willing to sacrifice social and other activities to make enough time to truly advance, nor will they put their minds to it. This is not to say that women can't program, I just believe that they are less likely to want to. There are always women who excel at programming naturally like so many guys do.
It is my belief that the gender disproportionally, although potentially problematic, is simply a facet of the choice we have with our jobs these days. Quite frankly, I'm not in C.S. because it didn't appeal to me, even through programming is one of my favorite hobbies. Perhaps it is something like this. but it would be wrong to assume that since there is a disparity, it must be a bad one. In general men and women are different, and to expect them both to act in the same way would belittle those differences that help make us all more unique.
Sara
· 2 years ago
I'll tell you why... managers don't take us seriously without a CS degree, and that's why I'm working on one, while working in IT full-time even though I would rather be doing softare design. It's socially acceptible for boys to locke themselves in their rooms at age 5 and code themselves to death, but when we do it, we're just dabbling or playing and clearly, without a degree, we're useless.
Stephen
· 2 years ago
The fundamental difference between men and women is that there are very few, if any, real differences. This is probably the last but one generation where we will see even the shadow of the old fasioned 'girly'. Women operate genearlly so much more like men than they did a generation ago, and as technology becomes ever more invasive, and so the physical differences become ever more irrelevant, that trend can only continue. Programming is an endless set of fascinating intellectual challenges, like no other in my experience, and it can only be a matter of time before more women realise that, and apply their equally good minds to it.
Kyle
· 2 years ago
Fredrik, I like your analysis of the situation. One guy can "spread his seed" across multiple women. So more men are "left alone" to study things like software dev/eng. Even if this resulted in 51% men and 49% women during the onset of history, that gap would be exacerbated by time, causing social pressure, which in turn causes a greater gap. This is just simple mathematics. Another thing to consider is that when women need to get pregnant before a certain time...again, predisposing them when they are young to seek a mate...same argument as above applies. I think , and I stand behind this, that the best thing to encourage women to go into CS is to figure out a way for men to have children instead of them. There is a genetic difference, boys have penises and girls have vaginas.
Mr. Manners
· 2 years ago
I don't care what the gender is or what the degree is as long as they can chew with their god dam mouth closed.
D in MI
· 2 years ago
"we can choose to treat the symptom without necessarily fixing the root causes." This is the fundamental flaw with her proposal and much liberal social policy. The problem (if it truly is one) will not go away until more women get a hankering to tinker, period.
FOR SURE
· 2 years ago
I am a female with a Masters Degree in CS, and most of what I do on the job was self-taught. I did have to get the degree in order to be hired as a full-time programmer. Before the degree, it was web design, tech support, etc. with maybe a little programming on the side. I love coding and am much better at it than I am at social skills. However I am about to change jobs to one where I'll once again be responsible form more mundane tasks in addition to coding. Why is that? Because I am no longer willing or able to work 80 hour weeks, ignore my health, ignore my family, etc. It is EXACTLY as other posters have said. I'm not going literally to give up my life for no extra pay, just to make someone else richer. It isn't right, and it isn't my problem that most men in IT let their egos spur them to this behavior. I only want jobs where I won't have to compete against such men. I would love to work on Open Source projects, it would be far more interesting than the pointy-haired-boss driven crap I have to do at work. But paying the bills and my health come first. If I can keep my skills up to date, and live that long, I plan to do my own fun things in my retirement. But to even get there, I have to work sane hours and not let my job kill me or burn me out. I am fed up with the men I work with now. Their mediocre skills do not justify their huge egos, the only reason they have their jobs is that they are doormats and will work nights and weekends with no notice. It doesn't work this way in other parts of the company. You don't usually see the Finance or HR or others behaving this way, whether they are men or women.
Jasper
· 2 years ago
This may be off-topic, but do you realize how long your article seems to be if you dont know most of the text is replies? Some people look at the bar on the left of the browser-screen and think, i dont have time for such a long article. (maybe give a linecount on top?)
Barb Ericson
· 2 years ago
There is a large group of females who teach them selves computing. They are high school AP Computer Science teachers. A large part of the lack of professional females has to do with sterotypes and misconceptions about the field. We are one of the few fields that has lost women over the years. We have gone from 40% female in the 80s to 15% of current majors. Math has increased the percentage of women. There are more than 50% female doctors. So we know that women can handle the science and math. Remember that the first computers where women who did calculations!
Christopher
· 2 years ago
You know it’s funny because I see a lot of girls who feel excluded from this field. However many GEEKs would love to have female counterpart just like their other social brothers. However, at an early age you will find that women not men are the ones who alienate women heavily invested in engineering activities.
It may be that women have to prove themselves but so do the men. I am a self taught male software developer and welcome to the party, I have to prove myself every day to every person in the company.
However, having to prove yourself at work is not the big issue here. Because the problem is not at work, it’s at the school level where a tiny fraction of women even get started in this direction.
Honestly, I think that the issue is chemistry based and socially affected. Therefore it begins with inclinations; do to chemistry inside each person, and then the chemistry inside other members of society enforces this.
My male friend started taking estrogen over a year ago and I actually see the role it plays. Estrogen has definitely reduced his desire to follow through with problem solving. I'm not saying it makes him not capable. However he doesn't seem to have the desire to follow through and now jumps over what appear to me as critical steps in problem solving. This is an example of what I meant by chemistry based.
However, there is definitely a social component to this issue. Additionally, the social component involves the fact that all other females are affected by their chemistry. So there they offer little social reward for behavior that is different from their own.
I believe these subtitle changes in this chemistry add up to what we see in society.
Sadly, I’m not sure there is a solution. However if we are going to give women money to help their business and support them as engineer are we going to also help GEEKS improve their social skill in society? Let’s face fact and realize that there is social price to pay for being Napoleon Dynamite.
Forgive me if I’ve offended anyone. It is not my intention.
Aaron
· 2 years ago
Why is there a gap? simple! women don't like engineering! if you've been to any large company that has a ton of engineers you will notice that greater than 95% of them are males. why? because men like to build things and women decorate them! Also, many women are raising children or don't have to work (rich husband) which also dips into the pool of available people. women are too busy talking about their feelings instead of doing something.
~Aaron
Ivan
· 2 years ago
I'm a self-tought male programmer with CS diploma. I broke apart and fixed thing while being a kid. Nobody encouraged me to do so. Most of the time, nobody even noticed I did so.
Nobody realy focused on "I always have to prove myself" part of most women's comments. So, I'm sorry to inform you, but women are not the only one who have to prove theirselves over and over again. So do men. We on the other hand don't bother that, and don't asks ourselves why is that so, because that's the way things work. I know on my own example that before I realy trust that someone is a good programmer, be that male or female programmer, I have to see their work. And I know that mostly everybody judges everyone else by that same criteria -> you are not good in that field until you proove yourself to me, and that's human. Stop thinking everyone is pointing and looking at you, and thus discriminating you just because you're a woman. I have an example from back when I was a student. I had a project which I had to do with a friend of mine (woman friend). I did all the work, but when we got in the lab to be questioned about our project, she was the first to be questioned. She didn't know most of the stuff she was asked, and so the assistant who asked her was asking more and more questions just to proove her that she realy does't know how the program worked. Afterwards, he questioned me. I answered correctly everything he asked me, but my friend thought that I was wrong on some theory question. The assistant wasn't sure who was wright, and she kept on pushing me that if she had a book, she'd show me right away how wrong I was. I pulled the book out of my bag and gave it her to show me my mistake, and at her surprise I was right. The assistant stopped questioning me and gave us both the max lab points for project. Afterwards, when my friend and I sat for a coffee, she started telling me how that assistant was discriminating her because, aparently, she got questioned double the time than I was. Like Ali G (one alter ego of Sasha Cohen -> Borat) said - 'nough said!
Basically, what I'm trying to tell you, most of the time you accuse men of discrimination, ask yourselves is that something you're just imagining or is it realy true. Because it's natural to judge, and the same works for being judged..
Rachel
· 2 years ago
I'm a 29-year old, female, self-taught professional programmer. Frankly, I wonder what everyone here is talking about. Aaron, what do you mean, women don't like engineering? Some of us clearly do! Not all of us want children, either. Our brains work fine; we can type; we have, in general, greater verbal skills than men; I've even read that we're less likely to let ego get in the way of accepting a good design proposed by someone else. These are the makings of good software developers.
As someone stated above, companies like to have diverse workforces, and so if anything I sometimes wonder, guiltily, if being female has helped me get the jobs I've gotten (none of which I've ever been qualified for when I walked in the door). There's not a lot I can do about that except continue teaching myself things so that I'll be better qualified for the next job.
Men and women are not always so different; there are many people of both genders who don't match the stereotypes. Honestly, as far as I can tell this whole problem is fading fast. Imagine having this conversation 20 years ago! I'm hoping another generation will see the end of this entire type of discussion.
Michelle
· 2 years ago
As a female engineer, I have experienced episodes of hostility from certain persons in my field. I have also experienced incidents and projects where my insights and knowledge were accepted and utilized. In general, I have found that there is a problem with a man's attitude towards the female engineer and not a problem with a woman's aptitude in math, science, and engineering.
When I was younger (and admittedly even today) I enjoyed taking things apart and putting them back together - including the dolls that were given to me. I enjoyed (and still enjoy) science fiction and mystery novels. When I announced my desire to go into engineering, I was told that it was a "man's job" and that I should become a doctor or lawyer. Of course, I strongly disagreed. Even with my degrees, on occasion I still have to deal with people not listening to what I have to say or second guessing what I have to say or trying to convince me that I don't know what I'm talking about... It does become tiring and downright irritable at times, but I enjoy what I do too much to stop because someone else has a problem with my having the knowledge that I do in a field that I'm "not supposed to be in".
Be encouraged - despite the horrible and shallow comments that many female geeks endure, there are a few male engineers who actually do respect and appreciate what we bring to the field and I believe that number is growing. In my opinion, the migration is happening very slowly but at least it's happening.
Christopher
· 2 years ago
Rachel,
I applaud you're success and wish you more to come. However, the problem is that 20 years ago this was a big issue and it is not today. Although many barriers have been lifted, you are greatly in the minority and unnecessarily so.
I wish simply giving it time would erase the chemical and social barriers that keep women from this field. My guess is they won’t for a simple reason.
Being an engineer is not Cool, Neat or Prestigious to other women in American culture.
I hope you and Michelle are correct that things are changing. However, the big question is why is migration of women to engineering happening so painfully slowly then?
Ari
· 2 years ago
My experience with female engineers indicate that they can solve the simple problems, but when it comes down to the very difficult, obscure problems they cannot solve them. The tough problems circulate for years and eventually land on the desks of the smarter male engineers every single time. Girl's brains are wired differently and they have trouble looking at things from multiple perspectives.
Jessica W.
· 2 years ago
The fatal flaw in all of this is the wrong assumption that girls are the same and equal to men. That is False! The sick feminists have managed to brain-wash an entire generation of stupid people to believe that. All the idiots are now trying to rationalize everything, including re-interpreting the laws of nature to support that fallacious hypothesis. Girl sales engineers make 150% of their male counterpart. Is anyone making an issue of it?
Feminism is a sickness. Learn about Misandry!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misandry
A Female Geek
· 2 years ago
Ari, in my experience women (self included) do not do the more difficult things because they are not as apt to sacrifice having a normal life to do them. When you look at the people who solve these difficult problems, they tend to be very obsessive about their work, don't spend much time on anything else. Every day I see men s egos drive them to work for free just to prove they can do something. more competetive =! smarter. more obssesive =! smarter. having no social life =! smarter. it is what it is.
Ari
· 2 years ago
A Female Geek, If what you say is true, the girls should never be hired if they don't have what it takes or are unwilling to do the job. If they are not qualified, they should not be hired simply to fill quotas. With politics, standards are lowered just for the girls.
The situation I am refering to is in a company with flex-time, and full time is considered at 36 hours per week. Even when given more time, say a couple of weeks, those girls could not solve the tough problems, whereas their male counterparts could solve them in a fraction of the time. No, they did not stay over during the weekends, nor did they put in overtime. They are just better and more qualified. Their brains are different, and larger which gives them more spatial abilties to see things from multiple perspectives.
Girls usually get a lot of help from the men. They are pampered. I just don't see the opposite happening.
Ari
· 2 years ago
A Female Geek, If what you say is true, the girls should never be hired if they don’t have what it takes or are unwilling to do the job. If they are not qualified, they should not be hired simply to fill quotas. With politics, standards are lowered just for the girls.
The situation I am referring to is in a company with flex-time, and full time is considered at 36 hours per week. Even when given more time, say a couple of weeks, those girls could not solve the tough problems, whereas their male counterparts could solve them in a fraction of the time. No, they did not stay over during the weekends, nor did they put in overtime. They are just better and more qualified. Their brains are different, and larger which gives them more spatial abilties to see things from multiple perspectives.
Girls usually get a lot of help from the men. They are pampered. I just don’t see the opposite happening.
A Female Geek
· 2 years ago
Ari, I think we're looking at 2 different situations here. If I apply what you said to the situation I thought of, I'd say: since when does "having what it takes" mean working 80 hours a week, and since when does "willing to do the job" mean willing to do it to the point where you become physically unhealthy and/or ignore your friends/family/etc.? For no extra pay at that. This is the main difference I see between men and women in my field. However, I also know a few men who are very good at what they do, but balance their work and life more evenly the most of the women do. They're probably not going to prove some really hard theorem either, but they are excellent at what they do (which is complex and difficult itself) and are valued highly by both their employers, employees, and generally live balanced and fulfilling lives.
If what you are saying is true then yes those women are not as qualified and shouldn't be pampered the way you say they are. And you're positively sure those guys aren't putting in more time than they say. Some guys I've known have been caught doing that to make themselves look better - to me that seems insane, but then again I value my personal time more than they apparently did. That's your situation, or the culture in your company or whatever, but you seem to have made up your mind that it applies to all women everywhere, who you've never even met.
One job I worked, the boss gave all the harder problems to me, because he felt that the male programmers were less reliable, only wanted bragging rights for more visible yet easier tasks, and wasted too much time trying to impress each other. Everyone got all the help they wanted, but some of these guys just could not be bothered to learn something new, and/or too full of themselves to ask help. I don't see how this situation pampered me, the female, but I was happy because I wanted a challenge at the time, and got it.
Besides, if our brains are so incapable of seeing things from multiple perspectives, then how does that explain women's typically better social skills. These requires seeing things from multiple other people's perspectives. It seems to me that it is the same thing, just used on a more instinctive level, than a rigorously-trained-for purpose like engineering or programming. I'm not saying it's not partly chemical or brain based, but if so, it is probably something else besides multiple perspectives. Also, there's the massive role culture plays in socializing men to be all competitive bravado and women to be, well, wimps. I know that when I was younger, I just assumed that I was too air-headed to do anything like programming, because I didn't see any other women doing it. It took school to get me interested in trying it. Now, I enjoy it and get paid but I still don't go at it as obsessively as many men do. I just don't care much if some random guy thinks I'm not as good as he is, and I'm certainly not going to give myself a migraine to prove it to him when I'm already proving it to the one who is paying me.
akohler
· 2 years ago
@ARI, Numerous studies have shown that men have bigger brains because they have bigger heads, just like they have bigger hands and feet. Bigger is not better. Men's brains have no more neural pathways, synapses, etc. than women's brain. The studies that showed that men are better at spatial learning were debunked almost 10 years ago ago for using biased methodology.
Overall, I think that the nature vs. nurture argument on this question is done. Yes, men and women think differently. No, this doesn't predispose us to certain occupations because all problems can be looked at and solved from different perspectives. Yes, there is still some sexism (and racism) in many fields. No, not all men in IT are sexist.
Ari
· 2 years ago
A Female Geek,
I am referring to real Engineering work where everyone has at least 1 or 2 university degrees.
You seem to be fixated on men having to work harder or longer to achieve greater ends, while at the same time you think you are better than those you work with without having to put in those extra hours or being obsessive. You have contradicted youself with your narrow-minded double standards.
We are fully aware of who works on what modules and exactly how much time everyone spends on a particular problem. People have to fill out their time sheets on a weekly basis. Like every other company, we use Metrics to keep track of our resources. I have been in Engineering for over 20 years, and my remarks are based on observations taken from different industries and companies that I have worked in. In general, the men are much much better at problem solving that the girls are. Studies have shown that at the genius level, men outnumber girls 10 to 1. We are concerned about performance at the highest level.
The new girls are anything but wimpy. They are arrogant and very aggressive. Some of them will eventually realize they are not as smart as they think they are or want to be, while others will never awaken and forever think and live in their own safe little vacuum world. But again, we are concerned about performance! For easy problems, almost everyone is capable of solving them!
Ari
· 2 years ago
akohler Please visit the BBC site for studies on Spatial Processing. Or just google it.
PREDATOR
· 2 years ago
Michelle,
I read the article and your response. I agree that the world is changing, albeit very slowly. It's a change, though, that I think is inevitable. In my parents' lifetime, for instance, some schools would not admit women to their science and engineering degree programs. Times have changed, however, and as some of these displaced women have made their way into high-ranking faculty positions, they have been instrumental in overruling the bigoted policies of the past.
Geek women like you and Rachel are doing the heavy lifting for today's (and subsequent generations') geek girls, just as previous generations of geek women sacrificed to make a spot for you to even be *allowed* to compete. However, whereas it was one thing to overrule an ignorant policy, it is quite another entirely to change popular attitudes, myths, and misconceptions; today's geek women are faced with this considerably more vexing problem. More vexing, I say, because there appears to be no tool effective against the problem except time. No matter how complete your training, no matter how immaculate your competence, it seems nothing can be done to accelerate the pace at which prejudice is replaced with evidence-based fact (e.g., that the genders can compete equally well in science and engineering).
By an accident of human nature and timing, it has fallen to you (plural: all geek women) to establish that your world is not flat, and that it revolves around the sun (not vice versa).
skinnypuppy
· 2 years ago
Biological differences, absouletly!...Upwards of 75% of school teachers are female. I don't see anyone pushing more men into the profession. I also don't see any educational qouta's. Teaching is an important and desired profession. Its simply not a popular career choice for many men. As a male, I do not blame society or discrimination for the teaching disparity. Men and Women make different choices throughout their lives, something feminists refuse to admitt.
Blake
· 2 years ago
I wish Joyce Park would talk about the gender gap in the educational system -- that is, the issue of boys dramatically falling behind girls. This certainly isn't a "hidden" gender gap; the gender gap lays bare like a boundless sea. I'd like to see women discuss some of the disadvantages boys and men face in society and up with male-friendly solutions that may help solve some of these problems. This would persuade me into believing that they are honestly trying to improve society for both women AND men and not resorting to reverse sexism. Women are not the only ones who are disadvantaged, nor are they the only ones who facing grim issues. I hope they come to a realization and stop always trying to make it seem like they're the only ones who have problems and are disadvantaged . Either they are honestly misinformed about the bleak issues boys and men face, or they have a malicious indifference to them. If the latter is true, this is iniquitious and would give me reason to believe that they are deliberately and spitefully selfish, only concerned about a problem if it negatively affects them.
skinnypuppy
· 2 years ago
well said Blake....
Jessica W.
· 2 years ago
Feminism is not about Equality. Feminism is based on sexist MISANDRIST hatred for men.
All feminism is NAZI Feminism because it is seen from a feminist point of view which is at one extreme. Feminism is not about equality because for equality to begin, it must be seen from the CENTER and not from one extreme end. But something so simple is difficult for the sheep feminist supporters to understand because they have been conditioned to blindly and savagely resist against any criticism of feminism.
Succeeding in anything takes hard work and everyone has their own obstacles.
If you're not defining yourself, then you're being define.
Jay
· 2 years ago
Why would anyone, women included, want to go into computer programming or engineering?!?
First you are putting your hat in a ring with a bunch of "socially and politically challenged" geeks. In our capitalist political system, if you don't have someone watching your back, you are going to be road kill! Doctors have the AMA, Teachers, etc. have unions, and the rich own the political system. Computer Geeks have nada in the way of power, so if the MBAs/Greedy Rich want to outsource your job, its gone. Or they can just go to congress and buy some more H-1B/L1 "desperately needed" temporary worker visas. If you want respect or want to bring some "reality" to engineering projects, forgetaboutit, Pointy-Haired Boss for you and think of yourself as just a powerless low cost disposible cog in the business machine. And when you look for a new job, "Sorry, you are unqualified because you don't know X-Junk-Software version 17.123576." Oh yeah, plan for "forced retirement" from the field around age 35.
We just went through a major bust, the tech field is just unstable. The field looks to be shrinking (outsourcing, insourcing, etc.), so your job prospects are low and opportunity areas seem to be shrinking to major hubs such as Silicon Valley (a doctor can live anywhere).
You have to be crazy to want such a career.
Jay (Ph.D. CS)
Bess
· 2 years ago
I have to agree that programmers' live is not glorious with 70-80 hour/week during weeknights and weekends. This is not a healthy lifestyle especially for females. It is the norm to work long hours for startups in exchange of the potential rewards but in general it is not the case working for a regular job. Not every females are willing to sacriface the social life, like dating or marriage. I found myself losing out on many shopping opportunities, parties and social life due to work.
I didn't start my life as computer science because it is not a popular major in my college days. Who want to spend nights sleeping in computer labs back then when board band, wireless or internet access are not widely available. I do get more involved with computer and programming due to my major, work involved in R&D and enterprenuer projects. If I have to choose to select my major again, I could have made the same choice or select another major that makes more money in shorter time.
My previous posts mentioned the "Pink" are intended to show other females that it doesn't have to be female geeks and look geek to get into Web 2.0. I am surprised that many guys are reading and responsing to this post created on Jan 2, 07.
I design many websites for businesses with no pink color involved. Website design, theme and layout should be based on the target audience and industry.
I am not associated with Renkoo.
I am leading a web organization with focus on Technology.
Silicon Valley Web Builder is Where You Build Your Vision of Technology.
Our Mission of Silicon Valley Web Builder is to become the leading web organization in Silicon Valley by promoting Technology and Education.
The Hard facts are that more girls are going into medicine and areas where competence is a gray area. They can be incompetent dead weight, but no one can say anything because they would be charged with discrimination.
In Engineering, there are only 2 outcomes. Either it works, or it doesn't. Girls get singled out and their incompetence shows when they cannot get things to work. So girls avoid Engineering like the plague because they know within themselves that they cannot hide forever behind some man who is doing their work for them.
courtney benson
· 2 years ago
As a women who has managed cross-teams including sales, product marketing and technical folks, I've met several individuals in marketing who has the skill-sets on the development side but never believed that they could be accepted without the engineering degree. In one instance, a change was made – it was an uphill battle to get the head of applications development to hire her. She had to start out in Q&A.. She was successful and eventually the word got out in Seattle and she was hired by a major software company. I think women have a more difficult time for many of the reasons discussed in the responses but I don't belive for one minute that it has anything to do with the male having the right DNA>
GailStein
· 2 years ago
When people are born with physical defects it is very easy to spot. But when people are born with brains that belong to the opposite sex, it is a far more difficult to see. Feminists are born with a male brain but without the penis. Feminists have a severe case of Penis Envy; that is why they are so angry with men. They want to be men, but cannot. Can you imagine their anger and frustration?
Girls that have male brains do have the male abilities. It IS in the DNA!!
Have you noticed that the Gay Males are very effeminate. It is because they have girl brains. That is why they cry a lot and are emotionally very weak. But they don't get their fair share of the girl jobs!
Mackenzie
· 2 years ago
I used to take apart toys like little locks and stuff and put them back together when I was little. "ooo how does THIS work? *break* oh...that's how....*fix*" I'm not a self-taught programmer though. I took classes in HS to learn VB and Java. I'm starting to study on my own though. I am majoring in CS, but it's a BA because my first major is International Affairs. I'm studying C by myself because the Programming for Unix class requires all non-seniors to know C and Unix (and I use Linux, so close enough).
My solution to what Bess says about dating, marriage, and social life is that since I can't stand getting the "you did what to what?" look when I say "recompiled the kernel" or some other thing about my computer, I don't date non-geeks. I think about, use, and talk about computers a lot. I need a guy that can keep up. They're not so easy to find either. I don't think I "miss out" on shopping or parties. I shop online, and I don't get along with large parties.
Skinnypuppy (good band, btw), have you ever paid attention to toys and stories for small children? Men bring home the bacon. Women stay at home and cook. Men are doctors. Women are nurses. Men are principals. Women are teachers. Men are executives. Women are secretaries. That's why there are less men teaching. The kids are told "boys don't grow up to be teachers, they become doctors and executives" so they try to do just that. Girls are told "girls take care of kids and teach kids, they don't roll with the big boys" so they grow up intending to do just that. When I was little, I thought it was weird that my physician, Dr. Lily, was a lady-doctor.
Gailstein, feminist != transgender. Feminist == "I'm a woman, and a man is no better than me."
kevwe bobaria
· 2 years ago
i am a an engineering student of university of port harcourt rivers state,Nigeria.i would like to know the full meaning of enterprenuer and it's relation to engineering
Jen
· 2 years ago
Many many years ago, around 1996, when the internet was really starting to blossom, I was a 16 year old full fledged self taught computer geek. I had taught myself how to use every program on my computer. I could fix computers, build computers, figure out how to network computers, and at that time I had also taught myself html, some C, VB, and how to use UNIX systems.
I remember trying desperately to get as job with my, at the time, rare, computer skills, and no one ever called me back.
My impression was, my shortcoming was that I was a 16 year old girl. While the discrimination wasn't blatant, I'm sure if I were a 16 year old boy I would have been hired. People simple have a tendency to think of 16 year old girls, with our young little voices, as not technically inclined, and immature.
On brighter notes, eventually my ISP took notice of my fiddling around in their UNIX system and setting up CGI's and offered me a job but they weren't located in my area.
I'm now studying engineering and am I glad to say, I have seen nothing but respect and recognition of my abilities from my classmates and instructors, 99% of whom have been male.
I'm glad there are now an abundance of people out there who are eager to give young women a chance in engineering, computer science, and technology. I believe most of the problems young women now encounter come from those who have been in the industry for many decades, or from companies based in countries where gender discrimination is more culturally ingrained.
Jakob
· 2 years ago
This is exactly what I expected to find out after reading the title The hidden engineering gender gap. Thanks for informative article
Adriana Lima
· 2 years ago
I couldn't understand some parts of this article The hidden engineering gender gap, but I guess I just need to check some more resources regarding this, because it sounds interesting.
Michael Motes
· 2 years ago
I believe women are organisms, that they are alive, capable of adapting, and so could eventually secure any future, no matter their predisposition.
With that said, I like'd to do my best to elucidate some tacit feelings I feel most Men have in regards to self-sufficiency.
As a Man, I feel my main occupation needs be, at least for some time, that of Protector, Defender, Preserver, Caretaker, or call the Man what you will, at last I am the barrier, which is first sacrificed, when the world, dark and lowly, base and evil, comes to infringe upon the borders of my world, my family. In a strictly terrene sense, Man and Woman are not the same. Woman may not equally well bear the burden of the barrier in the proper operation of our, humanity's bisexual system. With good fortune and smart work, I would be ever blessed to have a child in the womb of one I loved. Yet, it must be in her womb, the burden of procreation must rest upon her. She will be in some discomfort, for all I have heard, and, to be certain, by no means of might is a Woman's years of pregnancy to be the prime of her physique. Thus, I must bear what war may come in those maternal months.
I know I may be outcasted as not speaking to the current state of our society, where supposedly, law and order rule all, there are no dastardly villains, and a Woman needs no protection in her fragile feminine duty. But remember my words when next you see some attack upon a pregnant women, which I recall surface into national news every so often, two or three a year I see. Further, do not debase me because of the low volume of the statistic, for I am sure it is more common, as common as lust for money, that a crooked, deranged, non-engineering mind may see a pregnant women as an easy target.
And so, to illuminate my original claim of Man being predisposed to self-reliance, let us consider that the Man must die in any struggle which his Woman, his Master Madam in those months, may become entangled in. It is his, it is mine, it is all Men's duty to die bravely for his wife with child, whereas, so long as the Woman is with child, it is her requirement to swiftly escape any danger and to rest, eat, walk, saunter, sleep, relax, recreate and do at her leisure what she feels puts her in her highest state of health.
I believe this is one of the deepest roots of the gender gap. I, Man, must be prepared to rely solely upon myself, to give my mightiest effort against any fatal foe; I must be prepared to hold my life, reputation, and soul in hand against an infinite army of enemies. I must stand erect and braced for battle though my calculations would place the prospect for victory entirely with the other side. This I must do for my Wife; should I fail, I should die. Thus, are Men more apt to be self-reliant and self-taught. For in truth, degrees are obtained to tell the world what you know, to justify your belief in your knowledge. But for a Man who seeks only knowledge for himself, to have an understanding of the world, to supply him in his above mentioned Manly endeavor, he needs not the prestige of a degree but the power of knowledge; he needs no justification to the world; he only demands justice from it.
All Comments
You see a similar lack of women in "hard science" e.g. physics or mathematics. I think whatever skews women more towards biology than physics is fundamentally the same underlying reason...
I asked my wife, who is smart, well educated and a bit nerdy (she went to space camp!). She felt the same -- most women are wired (either by biology or by social circumstance) to be less confident in jumping in to this kind of thing. And that begs the question of whether it is nature vs nuture...
The key time to engage the interest of girls is just before puberty in order for that interest in computers to become all consuming enough to pursue for the rest of their lives, with or without a degree. The downside is that you trade off any kind of popularity or social life during your school days, and how many of us would make that trade? I did and only I remember what a dork/nerd/geek I was in high school - the problem's roots lie in environment, society, peer pressure, not answered as simply as nature vs nurture.
imho
As I said, the interesting thing here to me is whether this is an issue of nature or nurture (or social circumstances, upbringing or whatever your favorite "nurture" label is).
The numbers seem to show that men are more inclined towards the kind of bootstrapped learning process that Ms. Park's article discusses.
However, whether that is a "natural" male trait or a learned one is not clear at all.
My wife and I discussed this a lot tonight and she pointed out that as a young child, her brother (like me) used to have a passion for taking apart broken items and attempting to repair them. She couldn't think of a single female friend that had ever done this. I started doing that when I was 7 or 8 years old, which is pretty young to be doing or not doing something due to social pressures. It's also an activity that is done alone, not in groups, so the "group of boys say girls are icky" factor doesn't come in to play.
As a relatively new father, I hope my daughter will do and be whatever she wants in life. I certainly plan on giving her every opportunity to explore any kind of learning opportunity she wants to pursue. Unfortunately, it's going to be a good 16+ years before I have any kind of answer to this question...
Well, I just finished reading this book and the authors may have already provided us with the answer.
So, please stop scaring me with this nonsense that women may be genetically less inclined to do science/math or certain leadership activities like entrepreneurship. In China where 50% of engineering students are male and 50% female, you see similar rates of achievement across gender.
We need to carry out this conversation at and beyond Women 2.0 2007 meetup in Palo Alto. I totally agree with your observation and facts.
How sad it is. I don't even have to mention my last name. How many active Female Web Organization Leaders in Silicon Valley with my first name? You pretty much will quickly find out who I am.
I have my observation and explaination on why girls didn't get into computer. And how many girls didn't get into Web 2.0 startup or even entrepreneur circle.
Girls have to be pretty tough to stay working at founding stage or launching something new. How many girls are willing to work overnight in office around the clock sometimes and may even have to sleep in office. I've got a sleeping bag in my office even I live 10 min away. How many guys would like a girl working with them while they can't do guy talks? Basically I forget myself as a girl in order to work with the guys to get respect and get work done.
Any way, we will talk more at the party and I am sure it would be a lot of fun.
I have to prove over and over to every new employee at our company that, no, the title IT Manager isn't a synonym for Office Manager (if they even give me that much credit). Many of the men that I supervise in our IT department have a truly difficult time understanding that I AM a card-carrying geek. In addition to teaching myself several programming languages, scripting languages, markup languages, databases, and operating systems I also love Star Wars, read technical manuals the way others read the funnies, play video games, and even (yes, I admit it) play Dungeons and Dragons in my free time. And I am a happily married mother of two who cooks dinner most nights.
The younger they are the easiest time I have. I am 40. It's people my own age and older who just don't get me. Younger people, men and women, think it's cool that I switched from a career as a Psychologist to programming and IT Management because I loved doing it and the money is better. People my age think I'm full of *bs* but usually let me prove myself eventually. People older just never quite seem to understand that I do know what I am doing.
The differences in the social network are so vast, for many reasons, and it is a huge hindrance.
The good news is that free job posting boards are dissolving the need for many to reach into their own personal social networks for employees and business partners. This is helping women find those once hidden opportunities.
I’m a self-taught woman engineer – by your definition. My degree is in political science. I parlayed a position as a summer marketing intern into a part-time technology training position – back in ’84. My pitch – people didn’t know how to use the new IBM PC’s that were now popping up everywhere, and I could teach them. My credentials? I had read the manual for MS DOS and Lotus 123, and figured out how to write macros and batch files. Eventually, I was developing trading systems along side people with graduate degrees in physics, finance and CS. And most of the time I’ve been the only woman – except at the company where I got my start, the hiring manager there was a woman.
Why aren’t there more of us? I think there is a great deal of social pressure on women not to be selfish – i.e. not to spend all their time away from family and friends. The only way you can be a self-taught engineer is if you devote significant amount of time to learning and doing. Time that might otherwise be spent in more socially acceptable ways – organizing social responsibilities and managing extended circles of friends and family, being the primary caretaker of the home, etc. After all, if a guy has his head stuck in a computer and forgets to come up for air – and doesn’t arrange to come home for Christmas – well – he’s just that way. When a woman does it – it’s a major social failure, and you’ll never hear the end of it! I once didn’t bother to come home on my 24th birthday until maybe midnight. I stayed late at the office, self teaching myself something or other. My little sister had organized a surprise birthday party for me. Whoops!
I listen to women talk about closed doors, distant coworkers and lack of opportunity, but I, personally, have never lived that. Friendly, non-romantic relationships -- mostly, but not always with men -- have always created safe places for me to experiment, express ignorance, and learn how the professional game is played.
I suspect this has something to do with having been raised by a physicist father, spending my early childhood as the only girl on a street full of boys and being very close to my brother until he went to college. Anyhow, for whatever it's worth, my community makes my career possible.
I'm glad to see women in more industries, especially engineering, biology, etc. It speaks a lot to the previous generations, and I'm proud to come from such a proud and independent mother who paved her own way in this world.
I am of the female sex and gender. I loved to take apart mechanical things and put them back together. When something in the house broke, it was me who was called to figure it out and fix it. It's not that I lacked for the ability to explore and learn by myself.
What really held me back (and cut me down) in college was that I didn't have a network that supported me in my explorations and learning. Yea, maybe I do need that rah, rah factor of encouragement, at least recognition of something done right. But that doesn't make me more female, it makes me more human. Duh! Everyone needs recognition, at the least, validation.
As a rebuttal, one might say, what about the past lone male scientist who worked tirelessly for years on end. Others derided his work, he didn't need validation, he could work by himself.
Wrong! What he didn't have was the entire human race telling him that he couldn't do it because of his gender. The scientist knew at a deep level that it was his *idea* that was isolated and derided, not his *gender*.
Contrast that with a woman in the past, if it was a woman who worked alone and tirelessly, it was with the knowledge that it was her *gender* that was derided, not necessarily her idea itself. Her ideas came in second to her gender.
Same ideas given by a man were (and still is) given more merit. Look up the different different psychology/sociology/anthropology studies about this. [Same resume, A with male name, B with female name, B is graded less just because of the *gender* of the name. Change the name from a 'white' name to a 'black' name (John vs LeShawn) and you get the same results.]
It is finally time to label this sort of gender imbalance by what it really is, misogyny!! Let's get that right. Every time we start talking about 'why don't girls do this or that', start with the first fact of this (and most other) culture, misogyny. Other cultures (also misogynistic) have plenty of women in tech fields, math, science, comp sci, who do very well. So why don't we? Do a cross culture comparison, and you'll see that it's all about nurture.
The first question people ask is 'is it a boy or a girl?' Until we can remove that (and so many damn others) from our collective conscious to something else, we will always be bound by our binary paradigm.
Several good books about it, one of which is written by a man: Misogyny: The World's Oldest Prejudice by Jack Holland.
I think there are strong social pressures against women spending that much time with a computer and my family has never understood it. I'm considered a bit of a failure because I'm not married.
I also think girls are much less confident about jumping in to things and I know that learning to do that was a big hurdle for me.
However I am also continually frustrated by having to prove myself over and over again. No matter what my past accomplishments are, I have to prove my ability ever time I start working with new people. No one expects a woman with an art degree to be a good programmer. Sometimes I do want to just want to quit because it's too frustrating.
On the other hand, my motivation working with software often seems to be different than the guys I work with. There are many guys that are just completely in love with and fascinated by the computer and how it works. I don't have that. I know how computers work as well as they do, but computers are only a tool for me. I'm happy to use other tools to create if they do what I want. It's that love of the actual computer that seems to put me apart from guys I work with.
I wish I did know the answers and I've spent a lot of time thinking about why there are so few women that do what I do. I believe that it is a combination of social and genetic differences. I do suspect however that if the social issues were gone, women would find their own way to thrive with software.
Shortly after graduate, I get dragged into computer business by 2 guy friends outside full time job. With all the people they know including guys, they identity me with the right attitude for business. To prove the angle investors and the guys that I can get compensated equally, I have to learn about networking business, willing to learn the hardware parts, read certification manual, and show that I am not afriad of taking computer apart. I find out quickly that I have to work very hard to prove your ability when you are a girl working with guys. You can see all these things can be very boring when you could have gone shopping, partying, dancing, outdoor with other friends in your spare time. You can see you must have the determination to get into computer related business.
What is interesting? My single girl friends are going out to all those dating events while I am going out to those tech events to recruit volunteers, build attendance, and network with media in rebuilding a lost web community in SV. Plus I have to spot the most current trends and study the latest technology so that I can stay ahead to come up with very cool programs. Not to mention about the Startup type deadlines at work.
This is such interesting topic. I can find a host to have all girl gathering so we can talk it all out. Guys just don't know how tough to be a girl in tech world.
I'm part of Women 2.0, and we are organizing an all-girl meetup next Thursday night (Jan 11th, 2007) in Palo Alto to create these professional social networks for young women.
More info and how to get there -- www.women2.org
It seems we have a lot in common, Bess and everyone else on this thread. I am a social welfare and english major, and now am a UI Designer. I'm in the startup scene. I'm a huge proponent for more women to join this Silicon Valley ecosystem to make it more diverse and interesting. We should talk.
See you next Thursday night!
~ang*e
Angie Chang
www.women2.org
There are technical topics we can discuss intelligently:
How to keep weight off working long hours and late nights with crazy deadlines
How to keep good figure with minimal exercise
How to fight off snack eating habits when you are under pressure programming
How to find out the latest shopping tips without spending too much time in shopping mall
How do you smartly invest your time and money
What is your list?
Just a few points to ponder...
The essential issue, however, is that of taking risks. Girls and women do not take the same level of risk as boys and men. In most fields of endeavor....sports, relationships, the military, exploration. Being a guy, I can tell you that we dont ask for permission to do this (to start taking apart things for example) we just go and do it. It seems "natural" and just plain cool. So call it "innate" or whatever, I was born with this.
Women want the rewards without taking the risks. It doesnt work that way, nor should it. (and some of you feminists will call that a "male standard", but it is a general principal of human societies and endeavor).
So, jump on into the water, its great out here, we arent stopping you, but please stop crying in your milk that its discrimination by men. You have to start digging deeper inside yourselves if you want to go down this path. I think you can do it, just realize the costs and inner emotional hurdles you face, but dont blame us if you havent got "the right stuff".
A Stanford PhD in Engineering
I can tell you that it is and has always been quite natural for me to jump in and that my EE husband is the more cautious of the two - preferring a narrow focus to his career and moving slowly through house wiring issues where I was sitting rewiring our entire electrical box while pregnant with no previous experience.
All that said my husband is an excellent engineer but explain to me how with identical credentials and my go get it attitude and my more extensive experience (longer career) that I make significantly less money than he does now but had always made more than him until we hit the 7-10 years of experience mark. Also, I had to fight to get senior title and he was given it in course of normal reviews and raises (as I should have - we both earned it).
I have the right stuff by the bucketful and yet there does still exist boy's club mentality.
Just yesterday a male tech asked me - a senior engineer - to mail something for him because he's older and thinks that is a girl's job.
I agree women should 'jump in' but don't try to pretend that discrimination is a thing of the past.
Veterinary medicine, for example, has about 75% female gradutes as of late. I understand human medicine is goin g the same way. Is this a problem? Do we need to have special enticements to lure males into medicine? Are males being discriminated against? Should we file a lawsuit against someone? Petition congress for gender quotas?
I don't care that I'm more likely to see a female doctor, should you care that your software is more likely to be written by a male engineer?
I certainly think it's a shame if anyone, for any reason, avoids pursuing their true calling. However, I don't find any glass ceilings preventing any such thing. I do find that males have a predilection for some jobs, and females others. Is that such a bad thing, or do we all need to try to be identical?
I certainly hope the result of all this isn't to encourage anyone who isn't truly interested in engineering to become one. I've never worked with worse engineers than the ones that chose their career for the wrong reasons.
I think I actually find this article somewhat condescending towards women, as if whatever professions they are choosing aren't "good enough" and more of them need to become engineers for some reason.
Poppycock.
I believe that is false. I base that belief on two data points (albeit anecdotal):
1) Although I am male, my first name is spelled such that the preponderance of people who have never met or talked to me think that I am female (not to mention all the junk mail/email I get meant for a woman).
When I send out my resume, I get indications (sometimes minor, sometimes major) that employers/recruiters are downright excited that they may be able to interview/hire a female engineer with my experience (my degree is EE, but I am a software engineer).
2) Almost every employer I have worked for in the software industry has actively tried to hire female engineers. Not to the point that they would get called on it, but employers and engineering departments, want a diverse workplace.
3) Most employers I have worked for care more about ability/skill/experience than degrees/certifications - but then this may be because I myself have no CS degree and they hired me, so I have not worked for those other employers (Thank God).
One comment with regards to women in engineering overall: engineers need to be assertive and outspoken to a certain degree, so that we can effective communicate. Many women have not been raised in a culture where that is allowed, much less encouraged.
Then there are the schools; it has been a while (20 years since I graduated), but the college where I got my EE, the head of the department didn't like women in the program - he thought they were not capable.
Do you know how much I would have loved to learn along side a female when I was teaching myself, or hanging out with my buddies? Can you guess what the girls in highschool thought of me?
I would suggest that coming up with a new piece of paper (certificate/degree/whatever) only re-inforces the trap of making women believe they need external affirmation in order to succeed. Not to mention, leveraging extra capital implies they are less cost-effective. If I was a women I would run away from this kind of favor.
And yet the very "engineering" positions you claim lack self-taught female workers (QA, build and release, documentation, DBAs) don't typically produce the entrepreneurs that innovate and set product direction (there are exceptions, of course), or go on "to experience the upper end of the range of Silicon Valley outcomes."
I do agree that there are far fewer self-taught females working in the positions mentioned above, but I've known several and their numbers may be in proportion to those of degreed female engineers working in all of software or technology development (which number is also a small fraction compared to male counterparts). Do you have numbers to back up your concern here or is your thesis based merely on personal observation?
In any case, won't (or shouldn't) the market correct any imbalance between technology production and technology consumption, irrespective of gender?
MD
At both universities I attended software engineers are required to take the same mathmatics and science courses as mechanical, chemical, electrical, and civil engineers. These included two hour labs twice each week in chemistry, biology, and several in physics (topics ranging from kinematics, dynamics, optics, E&M, and quantum).
Sure, I didn't have to study the unique characteristics of materials to the detail that a mechanical engineer would. Nor did I have to study the ways they behave under stress. But the mechanical engineers didn't have to study the design and implementation of parallel and distributed computing systems they use to simulate and/or solve such problems. Nor did they have to study the quantum physics needed to explain the functioning of semiconductor devices. That just means they aren't software or electrical engineers.
As for licensing, that's government-mandated junk engineers in *your* field have to put up with. It doesn't make you an engineer any more than passing your DMV written test makes you a driver.
Cause nothing makes me happier than waking up each morning feeling like the scum of the earth because I have a penis. I didn't repress any women, I never told any girl I knew they couldn't be an engineer or a programmer, infact I don't know a single girl who wants to be a programmer and the girls I know who want to be engineers, *GASP* are in the engineering program (one will graduate next year, her 3rd year, with an Mechanical Engineering degree).
Frankly, if you want to start up a program to encourage women in engineering and comp.sci., you don't need to do a professional program to be attended when you are expected to have made up your mind. You're asking girls who currently have no interest to do a year long internship when they could be a college doing what they want. You won't generate ANY new interest.
What you need to do is get the girls while they are young, encourage math and science and let them decide if they want to be Biologists or Chemists or Civil Engineers or Computer Scientists.
Just don't be like the patriarchs you fought against in the 60's and tell them what they are interested in.
The barriers of entry into IT are really low - because even poor people in 3rd world countries can participate. So there's nothing significant that prevents women in 1st world countries from doing the same.
2) Why should they want to? It's not as if the _average_ IT job is that well paying. And US companies regularly sack IT workers and send their jobs to India.
So why keep trying to encourage women to do something that most of them are obviously not that interested in, and doesn't really pay that well? Just so they have a 1/10000 chance of being a top CEO?
Sounds totally STUPID to me.
People might as well go into some other industry which they are interested in, pays better, and gives them the same or better chance of becoming a CEO/boss. There are more lucrative sectors out there.
Why not spend as much effort to get more guys into Nursing? Their greater upper body strength will help in moving or turning over patients.
You dont see men proposing to get more men into professions like "hair dressing" or the hospitality industry??
I've been working with SW development for 8 years.
I'm sure there are genetic differences between men an women. I believe that feminine men are more inclined to work as e.g. hairdressers or selling clothes and that masculine women are more inclined to work with computers and technology. There is of course a scale with feminine in one end and masculine in the other where each individual is different. And of course there are lots of other "scales" that the individual must be in the right interval of to e.g. fit as a SW developer in the long run.
When you are young the most interesting thing (for most boys and girls) is the opposite sex. Since girls and women are more selective when it comes to choosing a partner than men there are more men than women that "don't get lucky" and end up spending their time on sports, computers etc.
I doubt that girls and women are willing to spend long nights without extra pay just to finalize some stupid piece of code (pun intended ;) while boys and men spur each other into this kind of strange behaviour.
It is my belief that the gender disproportionally, although potentially problematic, is simply a facet of the choice we have with our jobs these days. Quite frankly, I'm not in C.S. because it didn't appeal to me, even through programming is one of my favorite hobbies. Perhaps it is something like this. but it would be wrong to assume that since there is a disparity, it must be a bad one. In general men and women are different, and to expect them both to act in the same way would belittle those differences that help make us all more unique.
It may be that women have to prove themselves but so do the men. I am a self taught male software developer and welcome to the party, I have to prove myself every day to every person in the company.
However, having to prove yourself at work is not the big issue here. Because the problem is not at work, it’s at the school level where a tiny fraction of women even get started in this direction.
Honestly, I think that the issue is chemistry based and socially affected. Therefore it begins with inclinations; do to chemistry inside each person, and then the chemistry inside other members of society enforces this.
My male friend started taking estrogen over a year ago and I actually see the role it plays. Estrogen has definitely reduced his desire to follow through with problem solving. I'm not saying it makes him not capable. However he doesn't seem to have the desire to follow through and now jumps over what appear to me as critical steps in problem solving. This is an example of what I meant by chemistry based.
However, there is definitely a social component to this issue. Additionally, the social component involves the fact that all other females are affected by their chemistry. So there they offer little social reward for behavior that is different from their own.
I believe these subtitle changes in this chemistry add up to what we see in society.
Sadly, I’m not sure there is a solution. However if we are going to give women money to help their business and support them as engineer are we going to also help GEEKS improve their social skill in society? Let’s face fact and realize that there is social price to pay for being Napoleon Dynamite.
Forgive me if I’ve offended anyone. It is not my intention.
~Aaron
Nobody realy focused on "I always have to prove myself" part of most women's comments. So, I'm sorry to inform you, but women are not the only one who have to prove theirselves over and over again. So do men. We on the other hand don't bother that, and don't asks ourselves why is that so, because that's the way things work. I know on my own example that before I realy trust that someone is a good programmer, be that male or female programmer, I have to see their work. And I know that mostly everybody judges everyone else by that same criteria -> you are not good in that field until you proove yourself to me, and that's human. Stop thinking everyone is pointing and looking at you, and thus discriminating you just because you're a woman. I have an example from back when I was a student. I had a project which I had to do with a friend of mine (woman friend). I did all the work, but when we got in the lab to be questioned about our project, she was the first to be questioned. She didn't know most of the stuff she was asked, and so the assistant who asked her was asking more and more questions just to proove her that she realy does't know how the program worked. Afterwards, he questioned me. I answered correctly everything he asked me, but my friend thought that I was wrong on some theory question. The assistant wasn't sure who was wright, and she kept on pushing me that if she had a book, she'd show me right away how wrong I was. I pulled the book out of my bag and gave it her to show me my mistake, and at her surprise I was right. The assistant stopped questioning me and gave us both the max lab points for project. Afterwards, when my friend and I sat for a coffee, she started telling me how that assistant was discriminating her because, aparently, she got questioned double the time than I was. Like Ali G (one alter ego of Sasha Cohen -> Borat) said - 'nough said!
Basically, what I'm trying to tell you, most of the time you accuse men of discrimination, ask yourselves is that something you're just imagining or is it realy true. Because it's natural to judge, and the same works for being judged..
As someone stated above, companies like to have diverse workforces, and so if anything I sometimes wonder, guiltily, if being female has helped me get the jobs I've gotten (none of which I've ever been qualified for when I walked in the door). There's not a lot I can do about that except continue teaching myself things so that I'll be better qualified for the next job.
Men and women are not always so different; there are many people of both genders who don't match the stereotypes. Honestly, as far as I can tell this whole problem is fading fast. Imagine having this conversation 20 years ago! I'm hoping another generation will see the end of this entire type of discussion.
When I was younger (and admittedly even today) I enjoyed taking things apart and putting them back together - including the dolls that were given to me. I enjoyed (and still enjoy) science fiction and mystery novels. When I announced my desire to go into engineering, I was told that it was a "man's job" and that I should become a doctor or lawyer. Of course, I strongly disagreed. Even with my degrees, on occasion I still have to deal with people not listening to what I have to say or second guessing what I have to say or trying to convince me that I don't know what I'm talking about... It does become tiring and downright irritable at times, but I enjoy what I do too much to stop because someone else has a problem with my having the knowledge that I do in a field that I'm "not supposed to be in".
Be encouraged - despite the horrible and shallow comments that many female geeks endure, there are a few male engineers who actually do respect and appreciate what we bring to the field and I believe that number is growing. In my opinion, the migration is happening very slowly but at least it's happening.
I applaud you're success and wish you more to come. However, the problem is that 20 years ago this was a big issue and it is not today. Although many barriers have been lifted, you are greatly in the minority and unnecessarily so.
I wish simply giving it time would erase the chemical and social barriers that keep women from this field. My guess is they won’t for a simple reason.
Being an engineer is not Cool, Neat or Prestigious to other women in American culture.
I hope you and Michelle are correct that things are changing. However, the big question is why is migration of women to engineering happening so painfully slowly then?
Feminism is a sickness. Learn about Misandry!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misandry
more competetive =! smarter.
more obssesive =! smarter.
having no social life =! smarter.
it is what it is.
If what you say is true, the girls should never be hired if they don't have what it takes or are unwilling to do the job. If they are not qualified, they should not be hired simply to fill quotas. With politics, standards are lowered just for the girls.
The situation I am refering to is in a company with flex-time, and full time is considered at 36 hours per week. Even when given more time, say a couple of weeks, those girls could not solve the tough problems, whereas their male counterparts could solve them in a fraction of the time. No, they did not stay over during the weekends, nor did they put in overtime. They are just better and more qualified. Their brains are different, and larger which gives them more spatial abilties to see things from multiple perspectives.
Girls usually get a lot of help from the men. They are pampered. I just don't see the opposite happening.
If what you say is true, the girls should never be hired if they don’t have what it takes or are unwilling to do the job. If they are not qualified, they should not be hired simply to fill quotas. With politics, standards are lowered just for the girls.
The situation I am referring to is in a company with flex-time, and full time is considered at 36 hours per week. Even when given more time, say a couple of weeks, those girls could not solve the tough problems, whereas their male counterparts could solve them in a fraction of the time. No, they did not stay over during the weekends, nor did they put in overtime. They are just better and more qualified. Their brains are different, and larger which gives them more spatial abilties to see things from multiple perspectives.
Girls usually get a lot of help from the men. They are pampered. I just don’t see the opposite happening.
If what you are saying is true then yes those women are not as qualified and shouldn't be pampered the way you say they are. And you're positively sure those guys aren't putting in more time than they say. Some guys I've known have been caught doing that to make themselves look better - to me that seems insane, but then again I value my personal time more than they apparently did. That's your situation, or the culture in your company or whatever, but you seem to have made up your mind that it applies to all women everywhere, who you've never even met.
One job I worked, the boss gave all the harder problems to me, because he felt that the male programmers were less reliable, only wanted bragging rights for more visible yet easier tasks, and wasted too much time trying to impress each other. Everyone got all the help they wanted, but some of these guys just could not be bothered to learn something new, and/or too full of themselves to ask help. I don't see how this situation pampered me, the female, but I was happy because I wanted a challenge at the time, and got it.
Besides, if our brains are so incapable of seeing things from multiple perspectives, then how does that explain women's typically better social skills. These requires seeing things from multiple other people's perspectives. It seems to me that it is the same thing, just used on a more instinctive level, than a rigorously-trained-for purpose like engineering or programming. I'm not saying it's not partly chemical or brain based, but if so, it is probably something else besides multiple perspectives. Also, there's the massive role culture plays in socializing men to be all competitive bravado and women to be, well, wimps. I know that when I was younger, I just assumed that I was too air-headed to do anything like programming, because I didn't see any other women doing it. It took school to get me interested in trying it. Now, I enjoy it and get paid but I still don't go at it as obsessively as many men do. I just don't care much if some random guy thinks I'm not as good as he is, and I'm certainly not going to give myself a migraine to prove it to him when I'm already proving it to the one who is paying me.
Numerous studies have shown that men have bigger brains because they have bigger heads, just like they have bigger hands and feet. Bigger is not better. Men's brains have no more neural pathways, synapses, etc. than women's brain. The studies that showed that men are better at spatial learning were debunked almost 10 years ago ago for using biased methodology.
Overall, I think that the nature vs. nurture argument on this question is done. Yes, men and women think differently. No, this doesn't predispose us to certain occupations because all problems can be looked at and solved from different perspectives. Yes, there is still some sexism (and racism) in many fields. No, not all men in IT are sexist.
I am referring to real Engineering work where everyone has at least 1 or 2 university degrees.
You seem to be fixated on men having to work harder or longer to achieve greater ends, while at the same time you think you are better than those you work with without having to put in those extra hours or being obsessive. You have contradicted youself with your narrow-minded double standards.
We are fully aware of who works on what modules and exactly how much time everyone spends on a particular problem. People have to fill out their time sheets on a weekly basis. Like every other company, we use Metrics to keep track of our resources. I have been in Engineering for over 20 years, and my remarks are based on observations taken from different industries and companies that I have worked in. In general, the men are much much better at problem solving that the girls are. Studies have shown that at the genius level, men outnumber girls 10 to 1. We are concerned about performance at the highest level.
The new girls are anything but wimpy. They are arrogant and very aggressive. Some of them will eventually realize they are not as smart as they think they are or want to be, while others will never awaken and forever think and live in their own safe little vacuum world. But again, we are concerned about performance! For easy problems, almost everyone is capable of solving them!
Please visit the BBC site for studies on Spatial Processing. Or just google it.
I read the article and your response. I agree that the world is changing, albeit very slowly. It's a change, though, that I think is inevitable. In my parents' lifetime, for instance, some schools would not admit women to their science and engineering degree programs. Times have changed, however, and as some of these displaced women have made their way into high-ranking faculty positions, they have been instrumental in overruling the bigoted policies of the past.
Geek women like you and Rachel are doing the heavy lifting for today's (and subsequent generations') geek girls, just as previous generations of geek women sacrificed to make a spot for you to even be *allowed* to compete. However, whereas it was one thing to overrule an ignorant policy, it is quite another entirely to change popular attitudes, myths, and misconceptions; today's geek women are faced with this considerably more vexing problem. More vexing, I say, because there appears to be no tool effective against the problem except time. No matter how complete your training, no matter how immaculate your competence, it seems nothing can be done to accelerate the pace at which prejudice is replaced with evidence-based fact (e.g., that the genders can compete equally well in science and engineering).
By an accident of human nature and timing, it has fallen to you (plural: all geek women) to establish that your world is not flat, and that it revolves around the sun (not vice versa).
All feminism is NAZI Feminism because it is seen from a feminist point of view which is at one extreme. Feminism is not about equality because for equality to begin, it must be seen from the CENTER and not from one extreme end. But something so simple is difficult for the sheep feminist supporters to understand because they have been conditioned to blindly and savagely resist against any criticism of feminism.
Join an Anti-Feminist group today!
Feminism is a Sickness. Learn about Misandry!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misandry
Succeeding in anything takes hard work and everyone has their own obstacles.
If you're not defining yourself, then you're being define.
First you are putting your hat in a ring with a bunch of "socially and politically challenged" geeks. In our capitalist political system, if you don't have someone watching your back, you are going to be road kill! Doctors have the AMA, Teachers, etc. have unions, and the rich own the political system. Computer Geeks have nada in the way of power, so if the MBAs/Greedy Rich want to outsource your job, its gone. Or they can just go to congress and buy some more H-1B/L1 "desperately needed" temporary worker visas. If you want respect or want to bring some "reality" to engineering projects, forgetaboutit, Pointy-Haired Boss for you and think of yourself as just a powerless low cost disposible cog in the business machine. And when you look for a new job, "Sorry, you are unqualified because you don't know X-Junk-Software version 17.123576." Oh yeah, plan for "forced retirement" from the field around age 35.
We just went through a major bust, the tech field is just unstable. The field looks to be shrinking (outsourcing, insourcing, etc.), so your job prospects are low and opportunity areas seem to be shrinking to major hubs such as Silicon Valley (a doctor can live anywhere).
You have to be crazy to want such a career.
Jay (Ph.D. CS)
I didn't start my life as computer science because it is not a popular major in my college days. Who want to spend nights sleeping in computer labs back then when board band, wireless or internet access are not widely available. I do get more involved with computer and programming due to my major, work involved in R&D and enterprenuer projects. If I have to choose to select my major again, I could have made the same choice or select another major that makes more money in shorter time.
My previous posts mentioned the "Pink" are intended to show other females that it doesn't have to be female geeks and look geek to get into Web 2.0. I am surprised that many guys are reading and responsing to this post created on Jan 2, 07.
I design many websites for businesses with no pink color involved. Website design, theme and layout should be based on the target audience and industry.
I am not associated with Renkoo.
I am leading a web organization with focus on Technology.
Silicon Valley Web Builder is Where You Build Your Vision of Technology.
Our Mission of Silicon Valley Web Builder is to become the leading web organization in Silicon Valley by promoting Technology and Education.
http://www.svwebbuilder.com/
In Engineering, there are only 2 outcomes. Either it works, or it doesn't. Girls get singled out and their incompetence shows when they cannot get things to work. So girls avoid Engineering like the plague because they know within themselves that they cannot hide forever behind some man who is doing their work for them.
Girls that have male brains do have the male abilities. It IS in the DNA!!
Have you noticed that the Gay Males are very effeminate. It is because they have girl brains. That is why they cry a lot and are emotionally very weak. But they don't get their fair share of the girl jobs!
My solution to what Bess says about dating, marriage, and social life is that since I can't stand getting the "you did what to what?" look when I say "recompiled the kernel" or some other thing about my computer, I don't date non-geeks. I think about, use, and talk about computers a lot. I need a guy that can keep up. They're not so easy to find either. I don't think I "miss out" on shopping or parties. I shop online, and I don't get along with large parties.
Skinnypuppy (good band, btw), have you ever paid attention to toys and stories for small children? Men bring home the bacon. Women stay at home and cook. Men are doctors. Women are nurses. Men are principals. Women are teachers. Men are executives. Women are secretaries. That's why there are less men teaching. The kids are told "boys don't grow up to be teachers, they become doctors and executives" so they try to do just that. Girls are told "girls take care of kids and teach kids, they don't roll with the big boys" so they grow up intending to do just that. When I was little, I thought it was weird that my physician, Dr. Lily, was a lady-doctor.
Gailstein, feminist != transgender. Feminist == "I'm a woman, and a man is no better than me."
I remember trying desperately to get as job with my, at the time, rare, computer skills, and no one ever called me back.
My impression was, my shortcoming was that I was a 16 year old girl. While the discrimination wasn't blatant, I'm sure if I were a 16 year old boy I would have been hired. People simple have a tendency to think of 16 year old girls, with our young little voices, as not technically inclined, and immature.
On brighter notes, eventually my ISP took notice of my fiddling around in their UNIX system and setting up CGI's and offered me a job but they weren't located in my area.
I'm now studying engineering and am I glad to say, I have seen nothing but respect and recognition of my abilities from my classmates and instructors, 99% of whom have been male.
I'm glad there are now an abundance of people out there who are eager to give young women a chance in engineering, computer science, and technology. I believe most of the problems young women now encounter come from those who have been in the industry for many decades, or from companies based in countries where gender discrimination is more culturally ingrained.
With that said, I like'd to do my best to elucidate some tacit feelings I feel most Men have in regards to self-sufficiency.
As a Man, I feel my main occupation needs be, at least for some time, that of Protector, Defender, Preserver, Caretaker, or call the Man what you will, at last I am the barrier, which is first sacrificed, when the world, dark and lowly, base and evil, comes to infringe upon the borders of my world, my family. In a strictly terrene sense, Man and Woman are not the same. Woman may not equally well bear the burden of the barrier in the proper operation of our, humanity's bisexual system. With good fortune and smart work, I would be ever blessed to have a child in the womb of one I loved. Yet, it must be in her womb, the burden of procreation must rest upon her. She will be in some discomfort, for all I have heard, and, to be certain, by no means of might is a Woman's years of pregnancy to be the prime of her physique. Thus, I must bear what war may come in those maternal months.
I know I may be outcasted as not speaking to the current state of our society, where supposedly, law and order rule all, there are no dastardly villains, and a Woman needs no protection in her fragile feminine duty. But remember my words when next you see some attack upon a pregnant women, which I recall surface into national news every so often, two or three a year I see. Further, do not debase me because of the low volume of the statistic, for I am sure it is more common, as common as lust for money, that a crooked, deranged, non-engineering mind may see a pregnant women as an easy target.
And so, to illuminate my original claim of Man being predisposed to self-reliance, let us consider that the Man must die in any struggle which his Woman, his Master Madam in those months, may become entangled in. It is his, it is mine, it is all Men's duty to die bravely for his wife with child, whereas, so long as the Woman is with child, it is her requirement to swiftly escape any danger and to rest, eat, walk, saunter, sleep, relax, recreate and do at her leisure what she feels puts her in her highest state of health.
I believe this is one of the deepest roots of the gender gap. I, Man, must be prepared to rely solely upon myself, to give my mightiest effort against any fatal foe; I must be prepared to hold my life, reputation, and soul in hand against an infinite army of enemies. I must stand erect and braced for battle though my calculations would place the prospect for victory entirely with the other side. This I must do for my Wife; should I fail, I should die. Thus, are Men more apt to be self-reliant and self-taught. For in truth, degrees are obtained to tell the world what you know, to justify your belief in your knowledge. But for a Man who seeks only knowledge for himself, to have an understanding of the world, to supply him in his above mentioned Manly endeavor, he needs not the prestige of a degree but the power of knowledge; he needs no justification to the world; he only demands justice from it.