VentureBeat - Latest Comments in The hidden engineering gender gap

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

vibram five fingers — Thu, 10 Jun 2010 04:07:21 -0000

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Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

Michael Motes — Sun, 18 Nov 2007 11:31:54 -0000

I believe women are organisms, that they are alive, capable of adapting, and so could eventually secure any future, no matter their predisposition.

With that said, I like'd to do my best to elucidate some tacit feelings I feel most Men have in regards to self-sufficiency.

As a Man, I feel my main occupation needs be, at least for some time, that of Protector, Defender, Preserver, Caretaker, or call the Man what you will, at last I am the barrier, which is first sacrificed, when the world, dark and lowly, base and evil, comes to infringe upon the borders of my world, my family. In a strictly terrene sense, Man and Woman are not the same. Woman may not equally well bear the burden of the barrier in the proper operation of our, humanity's bisexual system. With good fortune and smart work, I would be ever blessed to have a child in the womb of one I loved. Yet, it must be in her womb, the burden of procreation must rest upon her. She will be in some discomfort, for all I have heard, and, to be certain, by no means of might is a Woman's years of pregnancy to be the prime of her physique. Thus, I must bear what war may come in those maternal months.

I know I may be outcasted as not speaking to the current state of our society, where supposedly, law and order rule all, there are no dastardly villains, and a Woman needs no protection in her fragile feminine duty. But remember my words when next you see some attack upon a pregnant women, which I recall surface into national news every so often, two or three a year I see. Further, do not debase me because of the low volume of the statistic, for I am sure it is more common, as common as lust for money, that a crooked, deranged, non-engineering mind may see a pregnant women as an easy target.

And so, to illuminate my original claim of Man being predisposed to self-reliance, let us consider that the Man must die in any struggle which his Woman, his Master Madam in those months, may become entangled in. It is his, it is mine, it is all Men's duty to die bravely for his wife with child, whereas, so long as the Woman is with child, it is her requirement to swiftly escape any danger and to rest, eat, walk, saunter, sleep, relax, recreate and do at her leisure what she feels puts her in her highest state of health.

I believe this is one of the deepest roots of the gender gap. I, Man, must be prepared to rely solely upon myself, to give my mightiest effort against any fatal foe; I must be prepared to hold my life, reputation, and soul in hand against an infinite army of enemies. I must stand erect and braced for battle though my calculations would place the prospect for victory entirely with the other side. This I must do for my Wife; should I fail, I should die. Thus, are Men more apt to be self-reliant and self-taught. For in truth, degrees are obtained to tell the world what you know, to justify your belief in your knowledge. But for a Man who seeks only knowledge for himself, to have an understanding of the world, to supply him in his above mentioned Manly endeavor, he needs not the prestige of a degree but the power of knowledge; he needs no justification to the world; he only demands justice from it.

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

Adriana Lima — Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:58:57 -0000

I couldn't understand some parts of this article The hidden engineering gender gap, but I guess I just need to check some more resources regarding this, because it sounds interesting.

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

Jakob — Sun, 29 Jul 2007 06:17:52 -0000

This is exactly what I expected to find out after reading the title The hidden engineering gender gap. Thanks for informative article

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

Jen — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 19:55:35 -0000

Many many years ago, around 1996, when the internet was really starting to blossom, I was a 16 year old full fledged self taught computer geek. I had taught myself how to use every program on my computer. I could fix computers, build computers, figure out how to network computers, and at that time I had also taught myself html, some C, VB, and how to use UNIX systems.

I remember trying desperately to get as job with my, at the time, rare, computer skills, and no one ever called me back.

My impression was, my shortcoming was that I was a 16 year old girl. While the discrimination wasn't blatant, I'm sure if I were a 16 year old boy I would have been hired. People simple have a tendency to think of 16 year old girls, with our young little voices, as not technically inclined, and immature.

On brighter notes, eventually my ISP took notice of my fiddling around in their UNIX system and setting up CGI's and offered me a job but they weren't located in my area.

I'm now studying engineering and am I glad to say, I have seen nothing but respect and recognition of my abilities from my classmates and instructors, 99% of whom have been male.

I'm glad there are now an abundance of people out there who are eager to give young women a chance in engineering, computer science, and technology. I believe most of the problems young women now encounter come from those who have been in the industry for many decades, or from companies based in countries where gender discrimination is more culturally ingrained.

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

kevwe bobaria — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:16:24 -0000

i am a an engineering student of university of port harcourt rivers state,Nigeria.i would like to know the full meaning of enterprenuer and it's relation to engineering

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

Mackenzie — Mon, 12 Feb 2007 02:05:01 -0000

I used to take apart toys like little locks and stuff and put them back together when I was little. "ooo how does THIS work? *break* oh...that's how....*fix*" I'm not a self-taught programmer though. I took classes in HS to learn VB and Java. I'm starting to study on my own though. I am majoring in CS, but it's a BA because my first major is International Affairs. I'm studying C by myself because the Programming for Unix class requires all non-seniors to know C and Unix (and I use Linux, so close enough).

My solution to what Bess says about dating, marriage, and social life is that since I can't stand getting the "you did what to what?" look when I say "recompiled the kernel" or some other thing about my computer, I don't date non-geeks. I think about, use, and talk about computers a lot. I need a guy that can keep up. They're not so easy to find either. I don't think I "miss out" on shopping or parties. I shop online, and I don't get along with large parties.

Skinnypuppy (good band, btw), have you ever paid attention to toys and stories for small children? Men bring home the bacon. Women stay at home and cook. Men are doctors. Women are nurses. Men are principals. Women are teachers. Men are executives. Women are secretaries. That's why there are less men teaching. The kids are told "boys don't grow up to be teachers, they become doctors and executives" so they try to do just that. Girls are told "girls take care of kids and teach kids, they don't roll with the big boys" so they grow up intending to do just that. When I was little, I thought it was weird that my physician, Dr. Lily, was a lady-doctor.

Gailstein, feminist != transgender. Feminist == "I'm a woman, and a man is no better than me."

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

GailStein — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:50:15 -0000

When people are born with physical defects it is very easy to spot. But when people are born with brains that belong to the opposite sex, it is a far more difficult to see. Feminists are born with a male brain but without the penis. Feminists have a severe case of Penis Envy; that is why they are so angry with men. They want to be men, but cannot. Can you imagine their anger and frustration?

Girls that have male brains do have the male abilities. It IS in the DNA!!

Have you noticed that the Gay Males are very effeminate. It is because they have girl brains. That is why they cry a lot and are emotionally very weak. But they don't get their fair share of the girl jobs!

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

courtney benson — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:06:15 -0000

As a women who has managed cross-teams including sales, product marketing and technical folks, I've met several individuals in marketing who has the skill-sets on the development side but never believed that they could be accepted without the engineering degree. In one instance, a change was made â€“ it was an uphill battle to get the head of applications development to hire her. She had to start out in Q&A.. She was successful and eventually the word got out in Seattle and she was hired by a major software company. I think women have a more difficult time for many of the reasons discussed in the responses but I don't belive for one minute that it has anything to do with the male having the right DNA>

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

Priza — Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:36:51 -0000

The Hard facts are that more girls are going into medicine and areas where competence is a gray area. They can be incompetent dead weight, but no one can say anything because they would be charged with discrimination.

In Engineering, there are only 2 outcomes. Either it works, or it doesn't. Girls get singled out and their incompetence shows when they cannot get things to work. So girls avoid Engineering like the plague because they know within themselves that they cannot hide forever behind some man who is doing their work for them.

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

Bess — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 19:35:29 -0000

I have to agree that programmers' live is not glorious with 70-80 hour/week during weeknights and weekends. This is not a healthy lifestyle especially for females. It is the norm to work long hours for startups in exchange of the potential rewards but in general it is not the case working for a regular job. Not every females are willing to sacriface the social life, like dating or marriage. I found myself losing out on many shopping opportunities, parties and social life due to work.

I didn't start my life as computer science because it is not a popular major in my college days. Who want to spend nights sleeping in computer labs back then when board band, wireless or internet access are not widely available. I do get more involved with computer and programming due to my major, work involved in R&D and enterprenuer projects. If I have to choose to select my major again, I could have made the same choice or select another major that makes more money in shorter time.

My previous posts mentioned the "Pink" are intended to show other females that it doesn't have to be female geeks and look geek to get into Web 2.0. I am surprised that many guys are reading and responsing to this post created on Jan 2, 07.

I design many websites for businesses with no pink color involved. Website design, theme and layout should be based on the target audience and industry.

I am not associated with Renkoo.

I am leading a web organization with focus on Technology.

Silicon Valley Web Builder is Where You Build Your Vision of Technology.

Our Mission of Silicon Valley Web Builder is to become the leading web organization in Silicon Valley by promoting Technology and Education.

http://www.svwebbuilder.com/

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

Jay — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 17:56:24 -0000

Why would anyone, women included, want to go into computer programming or engineering?!?

First you are putting your hat in a ring with a bunch of "socially and politically challenged" geeks. In our capitalist political system, if you don't have someone watching your back, you are going to be road kill! Doctors have the AMA, Teachers, etc. have unions, and the rich own the political system. Computer Geeks have nada in the way of power, so if the MBAs/Greedy Rich want to outsource your job, its gone. Or they can just go to congress and buy some more H-1B/L1 "desperately needed" temporary worker visas. If you want respect or want to bring some "reality" to engineering projects, forgetaboutit, Pointy-Haired Boss for you and think of yourself as just a powerless low cost disposible cog in the business machine. And when you look for a new job, "Sorry, you are unqualified because you don't know X-Junk-Software version 17.123576." Oh yeah, plan for "forced retirement" from the field around age 35.

We just went through a major bust, the tech field is just unstable. The field looks to be shrinking (outsourcing, insourcing, etc.), so your job prospects are low and opportunity areas seem to be shrinking to major hubs such as Silicon Valley (a doctor can live anywhere).

You have to be crazy to want such a career.

Jay (Ph.D. CS)

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

[M]ichelle — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 08:42:45 -0000

People can only get you down if you LET them.

Succeeding in anything takes hard work and everyone has their own obstacles.

If you're not defining yourself, then you're being define.

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

Jessica W. — Thu, 18 Jan 2007 18:24:44 -0000

Feminism is not about Equality. Feminism is based on sexist MISANDRIST hatred for men.

All feminism is NAZI Feminism because it is seen from a feminist point of view which is at one extreme. Feminism is not about equality because for equality to begin, it must be seen from the CENTER and not from one extreme end. But something so simple is difficult for the sheep feminist supporters to understand because they have been conditioned to blindly and savagely resist against any criticism of feminism.

Join an Anti-Feminist group today!

Feminism is a Sickness. Learn about Misandry!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

skinnypuppy — Thu, 18 Jan 2007 18:08:59 -0000

well said Blake....

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

Blake — Thu, 18 Jan 2007 18:00:04 -0000

I wish Joyce Park would talk about the gender gap in the educational system -- that is, the issue of boys dramatically falling behind girls. This certainly isn't a "hidden" gender gap; the gender gap lays bare like a boundless sea. I'd like to see women discuss some of the disadvantages boys and men face in society and up with male-friendly solutions that may help solve some of these problems. This would persuade me into believing that they are honestly trying to improve society for both women AND men and not resorting to reverse sexism. Women are not the only ones who are disadvantaged, nor are they the only ones who facing grim issues. I hope they come to a realization and stop always trying to make it seem like they're the only ones who have problems and are disadvantaged . Either they are honestly misinformed about the bleak issues boys and men face, or they have a malicious indifference to them. If the latter is true, this is iniquitious and would give me reason to believe that they are deliberately and spitefully selfish, only concerned about a problem if it negatively affects them.

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

skinnypuppy — Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:42:34 -0000

Biological differences, absouletly!...Upwards of 75% of school teachers are female. I don't see anyone pushing more men into the profession. I also don't see any educational qouta's. Teaching is an important and desired profession. Its simply not a popular career choice for many men. As a male, I do not blame society or discrimination for the teaching disparity. Men and Women make different choices throughout their lives, something feminists refuse to admitt.

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

PREDATOR — Thu, 18 Jan 2007 08:52:44 -0000

Michelle,

I read the article and your response. I agree that the world is changing, albeit very slowly. It's a change, though, that I think is inevitable. In my parents' lifetime, for instance, some schools would not admit women to their science and engineering degree programs. Times have changed, however, and as some of these displaced women have made their way into high-ranking faculty positions, they have been instrumental in overruling the bigoted policies of the past.

Geek women like you and Rachel are doing the heavy lifting for today's (and subsequent generations') geek girls, just as previous generations of geek women sacrificed to make a spot for you to even be *allowed* to compete. However, whereas it was one thing to overrule an ignorant policy, it is quite another entirely to change popular attitudes, myths, and misconceptions; today's geek women are faced with this considerably more vexing problem. More vexing, I say, because there appears to be no tool effective against the problem except time. No matter how complete your training, no matter how immaculate your competence, it seems nothing can be done to accelerate the pace at which prejudice is replaced with evidence-based fact (e.g., that the genders can compete equally well in science and engineering).

By an accident of human nature and timing, it has fallen to you (plural: all geek women) to establish that your world is not flat, and that it revolves around the sun (not vice versa).

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

Ari — Thu, 18 Jan 2007 01:11:26 -0000

akohler
Please visit the BBC site for studies on Spatial Processing. Or just google it.

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

Ari — Thu, 18 Jan 2007 01:03:36 -0000

A Female Geek,

I am referring to real Engineering work where everyone has at least 1 or 2 university degrees.

You seem to be fixated on men having to work harder or longer to achieve greater ends, while at the same time you think you are better than those you work with without having to put in those extra hours or being obsessive. You have contradicted youself with your narrow-minded double standards.

We are fully aware of who works on what modules and exactly how much time everyone spends on a particular problem. People have to fill out their time sheets on a weekly basis. Like every other company, we use Metrics to keep track of our resources. I have been in Engineering for over 20 years, and my remarks are based on observations taken from different industries and companies that I have worked in. In general, the men are much much better at problem solving that the girls are. Studies have shown that at the genius level, men outnumber girls 10 to 1. We are concerned about performance at the highest level.

The new girls are anything but wimpy. They are arrogant and very aggressive. Some of them will eventually realize they are not as smart as they think they are or want to be, while others will never awaken and forever think and live in their own safe little vacuum world. But again, we are concerned about performance! For easy problems, almost everyone is capable of solving them!

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

akohler — Thu, 18 Jan 2007 00:53:04 -0000

@ARI,
Numerous studies have shown that men have bigger brains because they have bigger heads, just like they have bigger hands and feet. Bigger is not better. Men's brains have no more neural pathways, synapses, etc. than women's brain. The studies that showed that men are better at spatial learning were debunked almost 10 years ago ago for using biased methodology.

Overall, I think that the nature vs. nurture argument on this question is done. Yes, men and women think differently. No, this doesn't predispose us to certain occupations because all problems can be looked at and solved from different perspectives. Yes, there is still some sexism (and racism) in many fields. No, not all men in IT are sexist.

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

A Female Geek — Wed, 17 Jan 2007 23:00:32 -0000

Ari, I think we're looking at 2 different situations here. If I apply what you said to the situation I thought of, I'd say: since when does "having what it takes" mean working 80 hours a week, and since when does "willing to do the job" mean willing to do it to the point where you become physically unhealthy and/or ignore your friends/family/etc.? For no extra pay at that. This is the main difference I see between men and women in my field. However, I also know a few men who are very good at what they do, but balance their work and life more evenly the most of the women do. They're probably not going to prove some really hard theorem either, but they are excellent at what they do (which is complex and difficult itself) and are valued highly by both their employers, employees, and generally live balanced and fulfilling lives.

If what you are saying is true then yes those women are not as qualified and shouldn't be pampered the way you say they are. And you're positively sure those guys aren't putting in more time than they say. Some guys I've known have been caught doing that to make themselves look better - to me that seems insane, but then again I value my personal time more than they apparently did. That's your situation, or the culture in your company or whatever, but you seem to have made up your mind that it applies to all women everywhere, who you've never even met.

One job I worked, the boss gave all the harder problems to me, because he felt that the male programmers were less reliable, only wanted bragging rights for more visible yet easier tasks, and wasted too much time trying to impress each other. Everyone got all the help they wanted, but some of these guys just could not be bothered to learn something new, and/or too full of themselves to ask help. I don't see how this situation pampered me, the female, but I was happy because I wanted a challenge at the time, and got it.

Besides, if our brains are so incapable of seeing things from multiple perspectives, then how does that explain women's typically better social skills. These requires seeing things from multiple other people's perspectives. It seems to me that it is the same thing, just used on a more instinctive level, than a rigorously-trained-for purpose like engineering or programming. I'm not saying it's not partly chemical or brain based, but if so, it is probably something else besides multiple perspectives. Also, there's the massive role culture plays in socializing men to be all competitive bravado and women to be, well, wimps. I know that when I was younger, I just assumed that I was too air-headed to do anything like programming, because I didn't see any other women doing it. It took school to get me interested in trying it. Now, I enjoy it and get paid but I still don't go at it as obsessively as many men do. I just don't care much if some random guy thinks I'm not as good as he is, and I'm certainly not going to give myself a migraine to prove it to him when I'm already proving it to the one who is paying me.

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

Ari — Wed, 17 Jan 2007 19:47:41 -0000

A Female Geek,
If what you say is true, the girls should never be hired if they donâ€™t have what it takes or are unwilling to do the job. If they are not qualified, they should not be hired simply to fill quotas. With politics, standards are lowered just for the girls.

The situation I am referring to is in a company with flex-time, and full time is considered at 36 hours per week. Even when given more time, say a couple of weeks, those girls could not solve the tough problems, whereas their male counterparts could solve them in a fraction of the time. No, they did not stay over during the weekends, nor did they put in overtime. They are just better and more qualified. Their brains are different, and larger which gives them more spatial abilties to see things from multiple perspectives.

Girls usually get a lot of help from the men. They are pampered. I just donâ€™t see the opposite happening.

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

Ari — Wed, 17 Jan 2007 19:17:42 -0000

A Female Geek,
If what you say is true, the girls should never be hired if they don't have what it takes or are unwilling to do the job. If they are not qualified, they should not be hired simply to fill quotas. With politics, standards are lowered just for the girls.

The situation I am refering to is in a company with flex-time, and full time is considered at 36 hours per week. Even when given more time, say a couple of weeks, those girls could not solve the tough problems, whereas their male counterparts could solve them in a fraction of the time. No, they did not stay over during the weekends, nor did they put in overtime. They are just better and more qualified. Their brains are different, and larger which gives them more spatial abilties to see things from multiple perspectives.

Girls usually get a lot of help from the men. They are pampered. I just don't see the opposite happening.

Re: The hidden engineering gender gap

A Female Geek — Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:33:40 -0000

Ari, in my experience women (self included) do not do the more difficult things because they are not as apt to sacrifice having a normal life to do them. When you look at the people who solve these difficult problems, they tend to be very obsessive about their work, don't spend much time on anything else. Every day I see men s egos drive them to work for free just to prove they can do something.
more competetive =! smarter.
more obssesive =! smarter.
having no social life =! smarter.
it is what it is.